I don't understand the deal with MoCo class size

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That's flatly silly. Not finding statistical significance does not mean there's no causal effect there. And the fact that you DO see a significant relationship when the class sizes get lower (under 20) means there's good reason to believe that in fact you just aren't able to capture the effect because of confounding factors. So, yes it's true that we haven't PROVEN a difference between 25 and 24, but it's not at all true that there's no evidence of a negative relationship between class size and student success.

Nobody said that there is a negative relationship between class size and student success (i.e., smaller classes are correlated with less student success)

The point is that the studies do not show a positive relationship between slightly lower class size and student success. I.e., the studies did not find a correlation between slightly smaller class sizes more student success. Might such a correlation exist anyway? Yes. But the studies do not show it.

[Anonymous]

I have read that the biggest benefits are for struggling students in the lowest grades (particularly in reading)..this the title one schools have the small classes. Strong teachers have a higher correlation with scores than class size after that. Can you imagine how many teachers they would have to hire it they capped all classes at 15 or even 20? But of course everyone likes small classes. Ms Smith doesn't have to work so hard grading so she has time to tell Johnny's mother all about his day. Both are happy..does Johnny learn more? Who knows?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our elementary school was built just a few years ago and already they are taking away rooms used for specials to convert to classrooms. Why would MCPS not anticipate that people will flock to a new school and thus build in extra classroom space? Seems like terrible planning.

When, exactly, did it open? And how many years before that was it designed? People in part are faulting MCPS for being unable to predict the future. And if MCPS overbuilt, people would scream "WASTE! BLOAT!" -- in fact, they do do that. DCUM regularly complains about the excess capacity at Beverly Farms.

No, the complaint with Beverly Farms is that they got a new school even though they were under capacity and projected to be so for the near future. Meanwhile, other schools that are bursting at the seams have no plans (or plans delayed) to address overcrowding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With so many kids from so many countries and so many ESOL and the FARMS increasing yearly, MCPS needs smaller classrooms. The parochial schools can get away with 25-30 kids because they all are from middle class American families. Most of those kids went to the parochial preschool and know the basics and behaviors of school.

MCPS kindergarten is a complete disaster. 27 kids and 10 of them ESOL. Some kids reading chapter books and others can't even read one word in English. Communication and culture differences. You couldn't pay me enough to teach there and I learned my lesson after sending one there. She learned nothing she hadn't learned in preschool. The curriculum is for the foreigners. Even in 1st grade, they are going over K word wall words. A, Am, Can, Go. I mean let's move on already and teach the kids that need to be taught. Can we not put all the ESOL kids in their own class with smaller ratios until they are fluent?

They are?

I wonder why that is?

They aren't all. My parochial was MOSTLY middle/upper-middle, but always a few kids on a free ride. More importantly though -- have you noticed that parochials that have class sizes like that have more than one teacher for that class? Um, yeah.

How much do parochial-school teachers get paid? How much do teacher aides for parochial schools get paid?

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

Clearly, you have missed my point. But I guess that is to be expected if you have never been involved in Catholic education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

What about the MCPS teacher who sends her kids to the local parochial school? I would venture to say she is in it for the money...otherwise she would be teaching for less salary at the school where her kids are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

Clearly, you have missed my point. But I guess that is to be expected if you have never been involved in Catholic education.

I'd be surprised if all those Catholic educators thought they'd be teaching a class of lily white snowflakes. My involvement with Catholic education has included a deep and abiding commitment to bringing education to everyone, but especially the poor and underserved. However, with a handful of exceptions (St. Jerome, St. Francis) that doesn't seem to be the mission of parochial schools in this area.

[Anonymous]

I agree with 15:30 - its downright shameful what they did with Beverly Farms. Huge new campus with an undercapacity school, while other schools are overcrowded and have kids in portables. And I don't have a dog in the fight - we live in the BCC district, but I have friends in that part of Potomac. They are all furious (except the BFES parents, who regularly gloat).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with 15:30 - its downright shameful what they did with Beverly Farms. Huge new campus with an undercapacity school, while other schools are overcrowded and have kids in portables. And I don't have a dog in the fight - we live in the BCC district, but I have friends in that part of Potomac. They are all furious (except the BFES parents, who regularly gloat).

Well it won't be long before the Wayside folks will be gloating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

What about the MCPS teacher who sends her kids to the local parochial school? I would venture to say she is in it for the money...otherwise she would be teaching for less salary at the school where her kids are.

I can speak to this from personal experience. Third generation PS teacher. Single mom. Two DC. I don't make enough teaching for MCPS to move into a cluster that I felt confident about. Generous FA from a private school. It's actually more diverse racially and socioeconomically than the school where I teach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with 15:30 - its downright shameful what they did with Beverly Farms. Huge new campus with an undercapacity school, while other schools are overcrowded and have kids in portables. And I don't have a dog in the fight - we live in the BCC district, but I have friends in that part of Potomac. They are all furious (except the BFES parents, who regularly gloat).

So they should have built a smaller school, on the assumption that enrollment would never go up? (Hey, weren't people just complaining about that?) Or they should have just gone on with a building that was built in 1965 and had never been renovated, because it wasn't over capacity?

I don't live in Potomac.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point with parochial schools (and many other Catholic privates), is that many of the teachers are there because they want to be...not because the benefits or the pay is good. Many of these teachers are committed to Catholic education, consider it to be more of a vocation vs a job, and have a passion for teaching our children. That is not to say public school teachers are not passionate, it is just a conviction that I see coming from them that I have not witnessed in a public school.

I assume that the teachers in MCPS are also there because they want to be there. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Also, I don't think that wanting to get paid for one's work is a sign of lesser commitment.

Clearly, you have missed my point. But I guess that is to be expected if you have never been involved in Catholic education.

OK, I missed your point. Could you please explain?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What about the MCPS teacher who sends her kids to the local parochial school? I would venture to say she is in it for the money...otherwise she would be teaching for less salary at the school where her kids are.

Do you work for pay? Do you like it when you get paid for your work? Generally getting paid is important to people who work for pay. Even to teachers! I don't think that's shameful. People should get paid for their work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How much are the property taxes where you're from in Boston? I would bet they are higher than MCPS. I have lived in the Chicago suburbs and Pittsburgh suburbs and MoCo taxes are much less. I moved from an $800,000 house in MoCo where the taxes were just under $8,000. An $800,000 in my Pittsburgh suburb would have taxes well over $25,000. So I don't think MoCo homeowners pay a ton in taxes and even a slight increase could make a difference.

So true. I'm from NY state, and the taxes there are staggeringly high. Around here, property taxes are such an afterthought- where I grew up, they could double your mortgage payment on a modest house and really affect your buying power.

I'm also a teacher at a W School, and in my opinion, class size is the biggest factor in determining success of the class. I currently have four classes with 33-34 students. I can barely fit through the aisles.