Why Some People Convert to Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But what about the part of all of the 4 billion or so nonChristians who are going to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their savior? Thats not very neighborly, is it, let alone "turning the other cheek" or "loving thy enemy." Sorry to see you go from this thread because as a Muslim parts of Christianity just don't make sense to me. And just as they do not make sense to me, they may not make sense to those who contemplated conversion to Christianity.

Anyhow, I'd like to move this topic to a different thread so that DCUMers can learn more about why people convert to Islam.

Every religion asks its followers to believe things that by science, couldn't possibly be true. Christianity does and so does Islam. If religion made sense, it would be called science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm sort of dreading the threads you say you're going to start on veiling and disciplining the Muslim wife. On the Trinity thread you complained about negativity. Do you really want to go there again?

You seem to think your threads are convincing people, that you're winning arguments and that people are changing their opinion of Islam and even converting. May I respectfully suggest that this is delusional. Maybe it's time to take a break, go recharge, get a new perspective.

Thank you for your genuine concern. I hope that if my threads don't scare you….do they? If so, please feel free to not look.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

PP is so right. No one will watch this link. So here is a brief summary...

A brief summary of Dr. Jerald Dirks, the ordained deacon who went on to Harvard University, then to Harvard Divinity School, and is now a Harvard Divinity School professor..He converted to Islam after he began reading the world's oldest existing texts before the Bible was even in existence. He was systematically exposed to these texts in Divinity School. It shocked him to learn the oldest manuscripts were different from the existing Bible today in several important areas such as trinity and crucification. Since he had knoweldge that the vast majority of Christians were not exposed to or aware of, and he still loved parts of Christianity, he continued to think of himself as an atypical Christian. Years later, he studied the Quran and began to realize that his new belief system based on the new knowledge he acquired from researching the old, original manuscripts matched Islamic beliefs. Thus, he converted to Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But how did you come to the conclusion that these two, either the man gouging his eyes out if he visually lusts or the woman wearing a head cover, mutually exclusive? Couldn't God in the Bible have required women to cover their heads AND also impose the punishment on men for looking?

In Islam, BOTH are commanded: the men need to lower their gaze around women and the woman required to dress modestly.

Looks to me that Christianity & Islam are almost identical on this point!

You need to read the actual Bible passage, and not just the astonishingly broad summary in that dawwah piece. Here's the dawwah piece again: "8. The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}."

Here's the actual passage from Corinthians 11:3-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

In other words, Paul advised women to cover their heads in church and while praying.

There's nothing in the entire New Testament about women having to wear veils in public, outside of praying. As noted earlier, the veils-in-church thing is if you think Paul's letters carry equal weight to Jesus' words. So for women who are going out in public, we go back to Jesus telling men to control their urges.

So no, Christianity and Islam are not "almost identical on this point"!

Well the Corinthians passage does describe head covering as required for prayer. However, apparently that Paul's word is quite different from Jesus seems to be debatable:

From www.biblicalreserachreports.com
Myth #5: Paul is the one who gave this command (rather than God)

This myth attacks directly at the inspiration of Scripture. This myth is often cloaked in terms like: "what Paul was saying was", "Paul was writing to address..." It makes commands in the Bible into doctrines of men. God, not Paul, is the author of 1 Corinthians. Paul was only the secretary, not the author of 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write. Paul did not write on his own authority. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). There is no basis, historically or otherwise, to say that Paul gave this command rather than God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting this thread back to it's topic….

Here is a wonderful link of a former ordained Deacon, who graduated from Harvard undergraduate school, then graduated from Harvard Divinity School. He is now a Harvard Divinity School professor that converted to Islam. It's one hour long.

He explains why…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU

You realize no one will watch that, right?

OMG, he went to Harvard. That's it, I'm converting to Islam now. Not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But how did you come to the conclusion that these two, either the man gouging his eyes out if he visually lusts or the woman wearing a head cover, mutually exclusive? Couldn't God in the Bible have required women to cover their heads AND also impose the punishment on men for looking?

In Islam, BOTH are commanded: the men need to lower their gaze around women and the woman required to dress modestly.

Looks to me that Christianity & Islam are almost identical on this point!

You need to read the actual Bible passage, and not just the astonishingly broad summary in that dawwah piece. Here's the dawwah piece again: "8. The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}."

Here's the actual passage from Corinthians 11:3-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

In other words, Paul advised women to cover their heads in church and while praying.

There's nothing in the entire New Testament about women having to wear veils in public, outside of praying. As noted earlier, the veils-in-church thing is if you think Paul's letters carry equal weight to Jesus' words. So for women who are going out in public, we go back to Jesus telling men to control their urges.

So no, Christianity and Islam are not "almost identical on this point"!

Well the Corinthians passage does describe head covering as required for prayer. However, apparently that Paul's word is quite different from Jesus seems to be debatable:

From www.biblicalreserachreports.com
Myth #5: Paul is the one who gave this command (rather than God)

This myth attacks directly at the inspiration of Scripture. This myth is often cloaked in terms like: "what Paul was saying was", "Paul was writing to address..." It makes commands in the Bible into doctrines of men. God, not Paul, is the author of 1 Corinthians. Paul was only the secretary, not the author of 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write. Paul did not write on his own authority. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). There is no basis, historically or otherwise, to say that Paul gave this command rather than God.

You are funny. Here's the guy behind biblicalresearchreports.com: http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/whoweare.php. He's a carpenter, he never finished his bachelor's degree. You managed to find one the dwindling numbers of literalists, although he does seem very sincere and devoted, even sweet.

[Anonymous]

Must Read to learn what Apostasy is.

Few Americans know what is going on inside the Muslim world and what it portends for them. The fact is that, most Americans are subjected to much of the same misinformation with regard to Islam that I grew up with inside the Muslim world. Thus Americans are in the dark attempting to formulate their strategy to defend themselves against the threat of terror, domestic jihad and Sharia. While they get ridiculed for being ‘Islamophobes’, the Muslim world itself is undergoing a huge and painful awakening.

For instance, a prominent Egyptian lawyer and women’s rights activist Nagla Al Imam recently announced her conversion to Christianity in Cairo, Egypt. The announcement brought shock waves in and beyond Egypt. This is perhaps the first case ever of its kind where a Muslim woman, who is also a Sharia expert, has openly challenged Islamic apostasy laws.

The relatively few number of Muslims who dare to convert to Christianity do that in extreme secrecy. That is because the penalty for leaving Islam is death in all schools of Sharia, both Sunni and Shiite. Those who wrote Sharia centuries ago knew that keeping Muslims in total submission would be very difficult to maintain, and thus they established barbaric laws condemning Muslims to death for exercising their basic human rights to choose their religion. Sharia never entrusted its enforcement only to the formal legal system. Islam promises heavenly rewards to individual Muslims who take the law into their own hands. Sharia states that the killers of apostates and adulterers are not to be punished as murderers. That is why, for Islam to achieve 100% compliance to Sharia enforcement, Muslim individuals were told they must be Allah’s enforces of Sharia on earth if the government fails to do so. That is the reason honor killing and killing of apostates happen in the West.

http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But how did you come to the conclusion that these two, either the man gouging his eyes out if he visually lusts or the woman wearing a head cover, mutually exclusive? Couldn't God in the Bible have required women to cover their heads AND also impose the punishment on men for looking?

In Islam, BOTH are commanded: the men need to lower their gaze around women and the woman required to dress modestly.

Looks to me that Christianity & Islam are almost identical on this point!

You need to read the actual Bible passage, and not just the astonishingly broad summary in that dawwah piece. Here's the dawwah piece again: "8. The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}."

Here's the actual passage from Corinthians 11:3-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

In other words, Paul advised women to cover their heads in church and while praying.

There's nothing in the entire New Testament about women having to wear veils in public, outside of praying. As noted earlier, the veils-in-church thing is if you think Paul's letters carry equal weight to Jesus' words. So for women who are going out in public, we go back to Jesus telling men to control their urges.

So no, Christianity and Islam are not "almost identical on this point"!

Well the Corinthians passage does describe head covering as required for prayer. However, apparently that Paul's word is quite different from Jesus seems to be debatable:

From www.biblicalreserachreports.com
Myth #5: Paul is the one who gave this command (rather than God)

This myth attacks directly at the inspiration of Scripture. This myth is often cloaked in terms like: "what Paul was saying was", "Paul was writing to address..." It makes commands in the Bible into doctrines of men. God, not Paul, is the author of 1 Corinthians. Paul was only the secretary, not the author of 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write. Paul did not write on his own authority. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). There is no basis, historically or otherwise, to say that Paul gave this command rather than God.

You are funny. Here's the guy behind biblicalresearchreports.com: http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/whoweare.php. He's a carpenter, he never finished his bachelor's degree. You managed to find one the dwindling numbers of literalists, although he does seem very sincere and devoted, even sweet.

OP, you should really follow the Who We Are link. He left two different universities (Eastern Mennonite University and UMD) because professors there told him NOT to take the Old Testament literally. So he's not exactly mainstream. That's fine, because he's entitled to his own Christianity just like you're entitled to your own Islam. Nevertheless, it seems a bit ironic that you call others Google Queens for citing Muslim theologians like Bin Baz and al-Qaradawi, both of whom both have massive audiences and are highly respected, yet you must have googled for hours to bring this earnest guy who runs a house church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Must Read to learn what Apostasy is.

Few Americans know what is going on inside the Muslim world and what it portends for them. The fact is that, most Americans are subjected to much of the same misinformation with regard to Islam that I grew up with inside the Muslim world. Thus Americans are in the dark attempting to formulate their strategy to defend themselves against the threat of terror, domestic jihad and Sharia. While they get ridiculed for being ‘Islamophobes’, the Muslim world itself is undergoing a huge and painful awakening.

For instance, a prominent Egyptian lawyer and women’s rights activist Nagla Al Imam recently announced her conversion to Christianity in Cairo, Egypt. The announcement brought shock waves in and beyond Egypt. This is perhaps the first case ever of its kind where a Muslim woman, who is also a Sharia expert, has openly challenged Islamic apostasy laws.

The relatively few number of Muslims who dare to convert to Christianity do that in extreme secrecy. That is because the penalty for leaving Islam is death in all schools of Sharia, both Sunni and Shiite. Those who wrote Sharia centuries ago knew that keeping Muslims in total submission would be very difficult to maintain, and thus they established barbaric laws condemning Muslims to death for exercising their basic human rights to choose their religion. Sharia never entrusted its enforcement only to the formal legal system. Islam promises heavenly rewards to individual Muslims who take the law into their own hands. Sharia states that the killers of apostates and adulterers are not to be punished as murderers. That is why, for Islam to achieve 100% compliance to Sharia enforcement, Muslim individuals were told they must be Allah’s enforces of Sharia on earth if the government fails to do so. That is the reason honor killing and killing of apostates happen in the West.

http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/

7:14/7:59 here. I see what you're doing here, and I can't say as I blame you, although to be clear we're different PPs. If OP is linking madly to Muslim proselytizing sites, it certainly seems fair to link to sites about Christian converts to Islam and the retribution they face.

[Anonymous]

^^^^ sites about Muslim converts to Christianity, and the retribution they face

(I typed the opposite of what I meant, obviously)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting this thread back to it's topic….

Here is a wonderful link of a former ordained Deacon, who graduated from Harvard undergraduate school, then graduated from Harvard Divinity School. He is now a Harvard Divinity School professor that converted to Islam. It's one hour long.

He explains why…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU

You realize no one will watch that, right?

OMG, he went to Harvard. That's it, I'm converting to Islam now. Not.

Well that would be presumptive. But a typical person who is curious should at minimum want to call him and see if he can have access to the same original manuscripts. Copies may be accessible to anyone at the Harvard Divinity School. Interested?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting this thread back to it's topic….

Here is a wonderful link of a former ordained Deacon, who graduated from Harvard undergraduate school, then graduated from Harvard Divinity School. He is now a Harvard Divinity School professor that converted to Islam. It's one hour long.

He explains why…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU

You realize no one will watch that, right?

OMG, he went to Harvard. That's it, I'm converting to Islam now. Not.

Well that would be presumptive. But a typical person who is curious should at minimum want to call him and see if he can have access to the same original manuscripts. Copies may be accessible to anyone at the Harvard Divinity School. Interested?

You don't get it. Dropping the name "Harvard" sounds insecure.

Heck, you don't even read the links you post. Otherwise you wouldn't have undermined yourself by linking to a home churcher who is obviously way outside mainstream Christianity, and you wouldn't have linked to that BBC source on concubines that contradicted the very things you were saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting this thread back to it's topic….

Here is a wonderful link of a former ordained Deacon, who graduated from Harvard undergraduate school, then graduated from Harvard Divinity School. He is now a Harvard Divinity School professor that converted to Islam. It's one hour long.

He explains why…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU

You realize no one will watch that, right?

OMG, he went to Harvard. That's it, I'm converting to Islam now. Not.

Well that would be presumptive. But a typical person who is curious should at minimum want to call him and see if he can have access to the same original manuscripts. Copies may be accessible to anyone at the Harvard Divinity School. Interested?

Have you read the other PP's link yet? http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/ It's about the death penalty for Muslims who convert to other religions. Interested?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But how did you come to the conclusion that these two, either the man gouging his eyes out if he visually lusts or the woman wearing a head cover, mutually exclusive? Couldn't God in the Bible have required women to cover their heads AND also impose the punishment on men for looking?

In Islam, BOTH are commanded: the men need to lower their gaze around women and the woman required to dress modestly.

Looks to me that Christianity & Islam are almost identical on this point!

You need to read the actual Bible passage, and not just the astonishingly broad summary in that dawwah piece. Here's the dawwah piece again: "8. The Bible also asks women to wear veils as in Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}."

Here's the actual passage from Corinthians 11:3-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

In other words, Paul advised women to cover their heads in church and while praying.

There's nothing in the entire New Testament about women having to wear veils in public, outside of praying. As noted earlier, the veils-in-church thing is if you think Paul's letters carry equal weight to Jesus' words. So for women who are going out in public, we go back to Jesus telling men to control their urges.

So no, Christianity and Islam are not "almost identical on this point"!

Well the Corinthians passage does describe head covering as required for prayer. However, apparently that Paul's word is quite different from Jesus seems to be debatable:

From www.biblicalreserachreports.com
Myth #5: Paul is the one who gave this command (rather than God)

This myth attacks directly at the inspiration of Scripture. This myth is often cloaked in terms like: "what Paul was saying was", "Paul was writing to address..." It makes commands in the Bible into doctrines of men. God, not Paul, is the author of 1 Corinthians. Paul was only the secretary, not the author of 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit told Paul what to write. Paul did not write on his own authority. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). There is no basis, historically or otherwise, to say that Paul gave this command rather than God.

You are funny. Here's the guy behind biblicalresearchreports.com: http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/whoweare.php. He's a carpenter, he never finished his bachelor's degree. You managed to find one the dwindling numbers of literalists, although he does seem very sincere and devoted, even sweet.

OP, you should really follow the Who We Are link. He left two different universities (Eastern Mennonite University and UMD) because professors there told him NOT to take the Old Testament literally. So he's not exactly mainstream. That's fine, because he's entitled to his own Christianity just like you're entitled to your own Islam. Nevertheless, it seems a bit ironic that you call others Google Queens for citing Muslim theologians like Bin Baz and al-Qaradawi, both of whom both have massive audiences and are highly respected, yet you must have googled for hours to bring this earnest guy who runs a house church.

You guys seem to have lots of problems with poor folks, African Americans, and blue collar workers, such as carpenters. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter or handyman of some kind? The question isn't whether the writers teachers were upset with him, but if he is quoting the Bible accurately. After all, his instructors may be themselves mistaken.

Lets get back to Dr. Jerald Dirks, though. Anyone care to do a bit of digging to get copies of those manuscripts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You guys seem to have lots of problems with poor folks, African Americans, and blue collar workers, such as carpenters. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter or handyman of some kind? The question isn't whether the writers teachers were upset with him, but if he is quoting the Bible accurately. After all, his instructors may be themselves mistaken.

Lets get back to Dr. Jerald Dirks, though. Anyone care to do a bit of digging to get copies of those manuscripts?

For the record, I don't think you're really this dense. I think you pretend to be dense because you can never concede that you're wrong.

The point is, it's hypocritical for you to claim that Bin Baz is wrong and you're right, but then you claim this home churcher represents the rest of Christianity. This guy, whoever he is, is on the fringes, but Bin Baz is widely followed.

Have you read PP's link about Islamic rules for beheading Muslims who convert to Christianity yet? http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/