Building a Tiny House on a MoCo lot - possible? implications?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about this:

http://www.redfin.com/MD/Takoma-Park/6426-5th-Ave-20912/home/11146110

Surely that won't do…it's just an ordinary small house, and it would be hard to feel superior about what a fantastic parent and human being you are, living there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the realtor who knows how to Google, thanks. We actually did not know about impact fees (we are at the very beginning of this process) so we didn’t think to search for that. We thought permitting was going to be the biggest issue.
To the person that looked through the link and noted it might actually not be 50K, thanks as well. We will read more thoroughly and actually talk to the folks in Rockville.
To the individuals suggesting legislative action, seeking a green exception, etc…I really like that idea. It strikes me as maybe turning this into some sort of movement for better (read affordable, smaller footprint, commutable) housing. But with two FT jobs right now and two kids under 4, we feel stretched for time. Then again, anything that’s worth doing seems pretty unsurmountable at first. Thank so much for the info on the council members. We are really going to think hard about this aspect over the next few months.
The question about privacy is wonderful and I’ll tackle that with the posts from those who are craving more room in their current situations/have large children/etc. I think the issue is complex. First, I will say that our ideas of privacy and space are completely cultural. I am not from the United States and the concept of having a room or space for everyone in a family is at odds with my concept of family and well-being. I am used to multi-generational housing units where everyone thoroughly enjoys begin together much of the time. My partner has also spent significant time abroad and we have both travelled to places where families simply do not live in the same types of structures that we think of as housing. Nevertheless, both of us are quite aware of and cognizant of the fact that our children and their peers live here and now. So, to the poster that said their child is always comparing their home to other homes, I will say that I frankly would have to teach my children about the realities of the world and how unbelievably lucky they are to have food, security, a warm place to sleep, healthcare, and parents that care about them. Period. I care not whether their friends have “nicer” clothes, “better” cars, “bigger” rooms, or whatever. And, I will teach them (to the extent possible) to realize the premium that those kids’ parents are paying for those things and that space. While their parents are checking their iPhones for work mail on a Sat., we will be gardening with them or catching lightning bugs. We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life, at least in the way we conceptualize quality of life. And, even if we did have all of the money in the world, we would still really, honestly, not want more than about 800sq. ft. of living space. It is just not us. However, we probably would just put that real estate on a cliff overlooking a nice, warm ocean ?. Perhaps our children will grow up to want a McMansion or perhaps they will grow up appreciating what we’ve done and the decisions we made to grow a family that looked inward and focused on not becoming isolated from each other, our neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important in the short span of time that we have on Earth. Who knows? In the meantime, my husband and I will try to do what we think is best for them and us. What else can any parent do?

The second piece of this, of course, is the logistical need for space as children grow and mature. We need space where we can have privacy as a couple (which I think I’ve addressed in terms of the soundproof enclosed space with a bed) and they need privacy as well. Again, I think design can take care of much of this. Privacy of this kind does not require a 300sq. foot room. It simply does not. In terms of having friends over, playing, being noisy, moving, etc…well, there are many variations that we can consider when the time comes. Or, that we can build in from the beginning. Many of these builders will actually work with you to design the home. In the example below, the master could be lofted above the living room and the conventional bedroom could be split in two with a false wall during the pre-teen/teenage years. They will be sharing a room for at least a decade longer, though.

http://www.nationwide-homes.com/ecocottages/main.cfm?pagename=ecoplandetail&planId=1235

In terms of other privacy (conversation/psychological), again design can help. A porch that has a way to be heated during the fall and spring, a living room that is set off from the “bedroom” areas and, of course, taking advantage of the fact that we live in an area with so many amenities. If you need to get away from your family, well there is so much indoor and outdoor space to choose from here.

As far as the stuff, I love the poster who mentioned treasures, books, and art projects as, indeed, we struggle with the art project one right now. They are little hoarders, aren’t they?! ? Our oldest is quite prolific at 3.8yo. But, honestly, we just do a bi-weekly clean out of treasures and art. Right now, we toss the art without her noticing (we keep a few pieces we want to collect) and the toys operate on a one-toy-in-one-toy-donated principle so we are pretty set on that. All of their toys could probably fit in small containers under high beds or a set of shelves. They seem non-the-sadder for it. In terms of treasures, our eldest is quite keen on picking up every acorn and flower she sees. But, we can easily keep a container on the covered porch for these sorts of things. All in moderation and I think teaching them the value of space and lessening the value that our society places on stuff is important whether or not we can make this work. As far as clothes, they have 12 outfits that match/are interchangeable each per season (two seasons plus layers), plus snow, rain, and swimming gear. It all fits in one dresser. They will get bigger, of course, but we will also be holding on to far less hand-me-downs at that point so I think it will balance out. We just need to be smart about storage solutions. Two to three pairs of shoes that get worn out before being replaced is also our norm. As far as studying, many a families all over the world have their kids study on the kitchen table. We can also fashion a small desk that flips up or down with a folding chair.
For those suggesting VA, we’d love to be able to consider it but we are a queer family and we simply must have legal protections in place for ourselves and our kids. We are not willing to gamble putting together a hodgepodge of legal documents to override the default legal scheme. Virginia is gorgeous and there are definitely communities we like there but it is a non-starter for that reason alone.

As far as the “green” element in tearing down, or improving, or building new, I suppose it depends on the details. We have yet to see a house in our target price range (under 300K for turn-key readiness) that would work. The poster in Arlington brings up some great points in terms of what you can fit in a small space. Modular is definitely an option but we like the hobbitat aesthetic. There are modular options that might work. We have no desire for a second bathroom EVER, having had 2.5 and 2 before. Literally, we absolutely do not understand why there have to be so many bathrooms in today’s houses. We also do not want a finished basement. I cannot imagine a tougher winter than the past one with a 3.5yo and a 4mo that could not be outside in the sub-zero wind chill for very long. If we made that work, we can make it work from here on out, particularly if they can hop outside and play until they can stand the cold no more.

As for sleepovers, we’re not interested in hosting or attending. Yep, we are THOSE people. But, should this be some kind of VERY IMPORTANT thing for our kids, we are happy to host a camp-out in our garden with smores, tents, outside movies, etc. Both of our kids have summer b-days so we’re set in that regard as well.
And, lastly, the commute question and work question. This is actually big. We both work right now though have done all kinds of schedules since we had kids trying to maximize the time that we spend together including staggered 4-day weeks (M-TH for one and T-F for the other), PT/FT splits, etc. We do not really see how we could be financially stable in older age and help our kids with college unless we are both working. We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) but have grad school loans. Right now one of us works in MoCo and the other in DC. Both are red line accessible. We are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario. We also do some consulting and teaching. So, we would accommodate the whole thing holistically so that we can be at home to care for the garden as needed. We have a lot of education, thus some flexibility, and are willing to work very hard to make things work. Of course, we are very lucky to even have that option.

Two things, as a parent:

1) You have very strong ideas about how you envision your family dynamic playing out, but I know several families who chose non-traditional housing/living options and it was…hard for the kids. (One lived in a yurt, another lived on a sailboat and traveled the world, a third in a farmhouse "off the grid" but just outside of town.) There is a non-insignificant chunk of your kids' lives -- including, basically, all of the school years -- where it is going to be important to them to fit in, to be like their friends, to develop their own identities away from the family. It is fine to have strong family values, but if you're going to live in a way that is so out-of-sync with everyone around, communicating those values isn't going to magically make your kids embrace them. You may not care about the neighbors, but your kids will, and will be making comparisons. It's part of growing up. While you and your partner are planning your dream home over the next few years, you would be wise to give more consideration to the impacts your choices may have on your kids, who have no say in the matter, and take the long view of your relationship with them.

2) While you're at it, you can come down a little off your high horse. Do you really believe that people who live in regular-sized homes are isolated from "each other, neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important"? Not to mention, you say "We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life," but go on to describe yourselves as "We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) … we are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario." It sounds like you're saying that you make better decisions than your socioeconomic peers, who are willing to compromise their families in order to have more living space. Most middle-class people have to weigh many factors in deciding where to live and how to balance work and home and struggle with where to draw the lines, but ultimately may draw them differently from you. Your (apparently theoretical) plan is one approach, but not the only one that works for families.

OK, one more thing--do you really not see the difference between having a SECOND bathroom and having five or six bathrooms?

This is the agent who posted the google link to Montgomery County. To the parent: I love you. That was great. And yes, you were way nicer than I was, but I get so irritated with people who think they're the "only" person to have such ideas, and that they found a way around the system, and that it won't cost what people are saying it will for permits. (And for the other PP, tearing down may help you avoid the impact fees, but you still have to get a demo permit and PAY for the demo - you'll pay one way or the other.) But all of this is symptomatic of the attitude of people who think they're smarter than the rest of us, which as the parental poster states, you really are on a high horse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, can you make your tiny house moveable? How tiny are you talking about?

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

OP, here- Not quite that tiny as our kids are still with us but I can definitely see this happening during retirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved from a 1500 SF rambler + 800SF basement to a 6000 SF new build after the 2nd kid. I highly recommend it for your marriage and sanity.

Love the honesty!

That would require us steal a significant amount of money or work 60+ hours a week so fairly horrible for both our marriage and sanity. And, as I mentioned, even if we had that kind of money (and we've had it before so we know what we are giving up) I'd like to not have to use a an intercom system to communicate with my family. But, to each their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the realtor who knows how to Google, thanks. We actually did not know about impact fees (we are at the very beginning of this process) so we didn’t think to search for that. We thought permitting was going to be the biggest issue.
To the person that looked through the link and noted it might actually not be 50K, thanks as well. We will read more thoroughly and actually talk to the folks in Rockville.
To the individuals suggesting legislative action, seeking a green exception, etc…I really like that idea. It strikes me as maybe turning this into some sort of movement for better (read affordable, smaller footprint, commutable) housing. But with two FT jobs right now and two kids under 4, we feel stretched for time. Then again, anything that’s worth doing seems pretty unsurmountable at first. Thank so much for the info on the council members. We are really going to think hard about this aspect over the next few months.
The question about privacy is wonderful and I’ll tackle that with the posts from those who are craving more room in their current situations/have large children/etc. I think the issue is complex. First, I will say that our ideas of privacy and space are completely cultural. I am not from the United States and the concept of having a room or space for everyone in a family is at odds with my concept of family and well-being. I am used to multi-generational housing units where everyone thoroughly enjoys begin together much of the time. My partner has also spent significant time abroad and we have both travelled to places where families simply do not live in the same types of structures that we think of as housing. Nevertheless, both of us are quite aware of and cognizant of the fact that our children and their peers live here and now. So, to the poster that said their child is always comparing their home to other homes, I will say that I frankly would have to teach my children about the realities of the world and how unbelievably lucky they are to have food, security, a warm place to sleep, healthcare, and parents that care about them. Period. I care not whether their friends have “nicer” clothes, “better” cars, “bigger” rooms, or whatever. And, I will teach them (to the extent possible) to realize the premium that those kids’ parents are paying for those things and that space. While their parents are checking their iPhones for work mail on a Sat., we will be gardening with them or catching lightning bugs. We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life, at least in the way we conceptualize quality of life. And, even if we did have all of the money in the world, we would still really, honestly, not want more than about 800sq. ft. of living space. It is just not us. However, we probably would just put that real estate on a cliff overlooking a nice, warm ocean ?. Perhaps our children will grow up to want a McMansion or perhaps they will grow up appreciating what we’ve done and the decisions we made to grow a family that looked inward and focused on not becoming isolated from each other, our neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important in the short span of time that we have on Earth. Who knows? In the meantime, my husband and I will try to do what we think is best for them and us. What else can any parent do?

The second piece of this, of course, is the logistical need for space as children grow and mature. We need space where we can have privacy as a couple (which I think I’ve addressed in terms of the soundproof enclosed space with a bed) and they need privacy as well. Again, I think design can take care of much of this. Privacy of this kind does not require a 300sq. foot room. It simply does not. In terms of having friends over, playing, being noisy, moving, etc…well, there are many variations that we can consider when the time comes. Or, that we can build in from the beginning. Many of these builders will actually work with you to design the home. In the example below, the master could be lofted above the living room and the conventional bedroom could be split in two with a false wall during the pre-teen/teenage years. They will be sharing a room for at least a decade longer, though.

http://www.nationwide-homes.com/ecocottages/main.cfm?pagename=ecoplandetail&planId=1235

In terms of other privacy (conversation/psychological), again design can help. A porch that has a way to be heated during the fall and spring, a living room that is set off from the “bedroom” areas and, of course, taking advantage of the fact that we live in an area with so many amenities. If you need to get away from your family, well there is so much indoor and outdoor space to choose from here.

As far as the stuff, I love the poster who mentioned treasures, books, and art projects as, indeed, we struggle with the art project one right now. They are little hoarders, aren’t they?! ? Our oldest is quite prolific at 3.8yo. But, honestly, we just do a bi-weekly clean out of treasures and art. Right now, we toss the art without her noticing (we keep a few pieces we want to collect) and the toys operate on a one-toy-in-one-toy-donated principle so we are pretty set on that. All of their toys could probably fit in small containers under high beds or a set of shelves. They seem non-the-sadder for it. In terms of treasures, our eldest is quite keen on picking up every acorn and flower she sees. But, we can easily keep a container on the covered porch for these sorts of things. All in moderation and I think teaching them the value of space and lessening the value that our society places on stuff is important whether or not we can make this work. As far as clothes, they have 12 outfits that match/are interchangeable each per season (two seasons plus layers), plus snow, rain, and swimming gear. It all fits in one dresser. They will get bigger, of course, but we will also be holding on to far less hand-me-downs at that point so I think it will balance out. We just need to be smart about storage solutions. Two to three pairs of shoes that get worn out before being replaced is also our norm. As far as studying, many a families all over the world have their kids study on the kitchen table. We can also fashion a small desk that flips up or down with a folding chair.
For those suggesting VA, we’d love to be able to consider it but we are a queer family and we simply must have legal protections in place for ourselves and our kids. We are not willing to gamble putting together a hodgepodge of legal documents to override the default legal scheme. Virginia is gorgeous and there are definitely communities we like there but it is a non-starter for that reason alone.

As far as the “green” element in tearing down, or improving, or building new, I suppose it depends on the details. We have yet to see a house in our target price range (under 300K for turn-key readiness) that would work. The poster in Arlington brings up some great points in terms of what you can fit in a small space. Modular is definitely an option but we like the hobbitat aesthetic. There are modular options that might work. We have no desire for a second bathroom EVER, having had 2.5 and 2 before. Literally, we absolutely do not understand why there have to be so many bathrooms in today’s houses. We also do not want a finished basement. I cannot imagine a tougher winter than the past one with a 3.5yo and a 4mo that could not be outside in the sub-zero wind chill for very long. If we made that work, we can make it work from here on out, particularly if they can hop outside and play until they can stand the cold no more.

As for sleepovers, we’re not interested in hosting or attending. Yep, we are THOSE people. But, should this be some kind of VERY IMPORTANT thing for our kids, we are happy to host a camp-out in our garden with smores, tents, outside movies, etc. Both of our kids have summer b-days so we’re set in that regard as well.
And, lastly, the commute question and work question. This is actually big. We both work right now though have done all kinds of schedules since we had kids trying to maximize the time that we spend together including staggered 4-day weeks (M-TH for one and T-F for the other), PT/FT splits, etc. We do not really see how we could be financially stable in older age and help our kids with college unless we are both working. We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) but have grad school loans. Right now one of us works in MoCo and the other in DC. Both are red line accessible. We are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario. We also do some consulting and teaching. So, we would accommodate the whole thing holistically so that we can be at home to care for the garden as needed. We have a lot of education, thus some flexibility, and are willing to work very hard to make things work. Of course, we are very lucky to even have that option.

Two things, as a parent:

1) You have very strong ideas about how you envision your family dynamic playing out, but I know several families who chose non-traditional housing/living options and it was…hard for the kids. (One lived in a yurt, another lived on a sailboat and traveled the world, a third in a farmhouse "off the grid" but just outside of town.) There is a non-insignificant chunk of your kids' lives -- including, basically, all of the school years -- where it is going to be important to them to fit in, to be like their friends, to develop their own identities away from the family. It is fine to have strong family values, but if you're going to live in a way that is so out-of-sync with everyone around, communicating those values isn't going to magically make your kids embrace them. You may not care about the neighbors, but your kids will, and will be making comparisons. It's part of growing up. While you and your partner are planning your dream home over the next few years, you would be wise to give more consideration to the impacts your choices may have on your kids, who have no say in the matter, and take the long view of your relationship with them.

2) While you're at it, you can come down a little off your high horse. Do you really believe that people who live in regular-sized homes are isolated from "each other, neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important"? Not to mention, you say "We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life," but go on to describe yourselves as "We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) … we are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario." It sounds like you're saying that you make better decisions than your socioeconomic peers, who are willing to compromise their families in order to have more living space. Most middle-class people have to weigh many factors in deciding where to live and how to balance work and home and struggle with where to draw the lines, but ultimately may draw them differently from you. Your (apparently theoretical) plan is one approach, but not the only one that works for families.

OK, one more thing--do you really not see the difference between having a SECOND bathroom and having five or six bathrooms?

This is the agent who posted the google link to Montgomery County. To the parent: I love you. That was great. And yes, you were way nicer than I was, but I get so irritated with people who think they're the "only" person to have such ideas, and that they found a way around the system, and that it won't cost what people are saying it will for permits. (And for the other PP, tearing down may help you avoid the impact fees, but you still have to get a demo permit and PAY for the demo - you'll pay one way or the other.) But all of this is symptomatic of the attitude of people who think they're smarter than the rest of us, which as the parental poster states, you really are on a high horse.

Op- here. We are not on a high horse. We really just want this for our family. We totally respect what you may want for your family including 6 bathrooms or two. I actually really don't see the difference between cleaning two toilets vs. 6. More than one sucks. That's all I want to clean. Ever. Yes, of course, six is worst but what I am saying is that I don't want more than one.

And, you are totally right, my kids may feel something different and want to fit in and whatever. It isn't that I don't care. It is just that we believe we get to run the family and that they will get to run theirs. We certainly do not think we are the "only" people to have this type of idea. Are you insane?! Nobody in the humanity is original at this point. Obviously. And, clearly, we are looking at websites where others have had this exact same idea. We are middle class in that our HHI is 135K in this area and with two daycare costs and rent that pretty much means we are on a very tight budget. Once the daycare eases up we can start funding retirement and college. So, still on a tight budget. Yeah, maybe we are trying to game the system. So what?! The system sucks. Ever sit at your cubicle or whatever you do and look outside and think...surely, this cannot be what life is about. But, we still care enough about our kids (despite what you may think re our not caring what their friends are doing) to want to be able to fund their education so that they have the opportunity to make their own choices and pay for our retirement so that we do not burden so we must stay somewhere that has a decent economy and good jobs. Come on, we are not better than you and don't imagine that we are AT ALL. But, if we make it work, we'll make sure to let you know so that you can follow suit since you seem to really be kind of grumpy about the system too. Otherwise, why would you delight in the fact that there are these costs that we had not considered? And, I would LOVE to meet your friends who chose alternate lifestyles. They sound awesome. Man, life is too short. My kids will get to make their own choices and their own mistakes. I am not sacrificing every single piece of life in the eventuality that they will be pissed when they are teens or young adults. Besides, as you said, who knows how the family dynamics will turn out. Maybe they'll think it is amazing that they got to do something different growing up. I know that's how I view my childhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no way to look at new build vs. old house and come up with the answer that a new build is greener. There just isn't. We live in a very small (1,400 square feet) 100-year-old house. We don't chemically treat our lawn. We grow vegetables. Without a huge amount of effort (or a big public display) we are living pretty green.

Oh, and we are in DC, which is very queer-friendly.

Sounds like terrible like third world

OP, here. Wow, that third world comment is, um, instructive. What hood do you live in? We'll try not to build next to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So, my question is, are we being totally unrealistic.



So have you actually tried living in a tiny space? Move to a one bedroom or better yet a studio for a year and see how that works out first before going out and buying land etc.

Having play dates in a tiny space sucks! My daughter found this winter very isolating.

[Anonymous]

Would it be more financially and environmentally sound to buy a condo in Takoma Park and have a plot in a community garden? What's the name of the cooperative housing building that you can see from the Metro tracks? Is that in DC or MD? Takoma Park would be your best fit, but they are zealous about their trees. It is very hard to find a Takoma Park property without mature trees, and very, very hard to get permission to cut down a tree (on your own property!) Hence, not ideal for vegetable gardening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Two things, as a parent:

1) You have very strong ideas about how you envision your family dynamic playing out, but I know several families who chose non-traditional housing/living options and it was…hard for the kids. (One lived in a yurt, another lived on a sailboat and traveled the world, a third in a farmhouse "off the grid" but just outside of town.) There is a non-insignificant chunk of your kids' lives -- including, basically, all of the school years -- where it is going to be important to them to fit in, to be like their friends, to develop their own identities away from the family. It is fine to have strong family values, but if you're going to live in a way that is so out-of-sync with everyone around, communicating those values isn't going to magically make your kids embrace them. You may not care about the neighbors, but your kids will, and will be making comparisons. It's part of growing up. While you and your partner are planning your dream home over the next few years, you would be wise to give more consideration to the impacts your choices may have on your kids, who have no say in the matter, and take the long view of your relationship with them.

2) While you're at it, you can come down a little off your high horse. Do you really believe that people who live in regular-sized homes are isolated from "each other, neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important"? Not to mention, you say "We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life," but go on to describe yourselves as "We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) … we are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario." It sounds like you're saying that you make better decisions than your socioeconomic peers, who are willing to compromise their families in order to have more living space. Most middle-class people have to weigh many factors in deciding where to live and how to balance work and home and struggle with where to draw the lines, but ultimately may draw them differently from you. Your (apparently theoretical) plan is one approach, but not the only one that works for families.

OK, one more thing--do you really not see the difference between having a SECOND bathroom and having five or six bathrooms?

This is the agent who posted the google link to Montgomery County. To the parent: I love you. That was great. And yes, you were way nicer than I was, but I get so irritated with people who think they're the "only" person to have such ideas, and that they found a way around the system, and that it won't cost what people are saying it will for permits. (And for the other PP, tearing down may help you avoid the impact fees, but you still have to get a demo permit and PAY for the demo - you'll pay one way or the other.) But all of this is symptomatic of the attitude of people who think they're smarter than the rest of us, which as the parental poster states, you really are on a high horse.

Op- here. We are not on a high horse. We really just want this for our family. We totally respect what you may want for your family including 6 bathrooms or two. I actually really don't see the difference between cleaning two toilets vs. 6. More than one sucks. That's all I want to clean. Ever. Yes, of course, six is worst but what I am saying is that I don't want more than one.

And, you are totally right, my kids may feel something different and want to fit in and whatever. It isn't that I don't care. It is just that we believe we get to run the family and that they will get to run theirs. We certainly do not think we are the "only" people to have this type of idea. Are you insane?! Nobody in the humanity is original at this point. Obviously. And, clearly, we are looking at websites where others have had this exact same idea. We are middle class in that our HHI is 135K in this area and with two daycare costs and rent that pretty much means we are on a very tight budget. Once the daycare eases up we can start funding retirement and college. So, still on a tight budget. Yeah, maybe we are trying to game the system. So what?! The system sucks. Ever sit at your cubicle or whatever you do and look outside and think...surely, this cannot be what life is about. But, we still care enough about our kids (despite what you may think re our not caring what their friends are doing) to want to be able to fund their education so that they have the opportunity to make their own choices and pay for our retirement so that we do not burden so we must stay somewhere that has a decent economy and good jobs. Come on, we are not better than you and don't imagine that we are AT ALL. But, if we make it work, we'll make sure to let you know so that you can follow suit since you seem to really be kind of grumpy about the system too. Otherwise, why would you delight in the fact that there are these costs that we had not considered? And, I would LOVE to meet your friends who chose alternate lifestyles. They sound awesome. Man, life is too short. My kids will get to make their own choices and their own mistakes. I am not sacrificing every single piece of life in the eventuality that they will be pissed when they are teens or young adults. Besides, as you said, who knows how the family dynamics will turn out. Maybe they'll think it is amazing that they got to do something different growing up. I know that's how I view my childhood.

Wow--project much? What did I post that makes them sound awesome? I'll tell you, two of those three families were headed by adults who had very strong feelings about "how people should live," and their kids really struggled because they went to school with lots of other kids who got to have all kinds of things (like hot showers and sneakers for gym…not cable TV and McDonalds), yet appeared to be happy and healthy. It was messed up, and they all bolted the second they could. One even moved to a friend's house while we were still in high school and had nothing to do with his parents after the age of 16. It may be your utopia but you seem a little rigid about it (your kids are under 4 and you've already decided no sleepovers?)

I'm perfectly happy with my life choices--can't see where I implied that I am grumpy about the system--unless you mean where I said that everyone needs to make choices and tradeoffs….that's basically true no matter who you are, or where you live, or how much money you have. Just because you struggle to make the best choice and choose where to compromise doesn't mean you're unhappy after you make it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Two things, as a parent:

1) You have very strong ideas about how you envision your family dynamic playing out, but I know several families who chose non-traditional housing/living options and it was…hard for the kids. (One lived in a yurt, another lived on a sailboat and traveled the world, a third in a farmhouse "off the grid" but just outside of town.) There is a non-insignificant chunk of your kids' lives -- including, basically, all of the school years -- where it is going to be important to them to fit in, to be like their friends, to develop their own identities away from the family. It is fine to have strong family values, but if you're going to live in a way that is so out-of-sync with everyone around, communicating those values isn't going to magically make your kids embrace them. You may not care about the neighbors, but your kids will, and will be making comparisons. It's part of growing up. While you and your partner are planning your dream home over the next few years, you would be wise to give more consideration to the impacts your choices may have on your kids, who have no say in the matter, and take the long view of your relationship with them.

2) While you're at it, you can come down a little off your high horse. Do you really believe that people who live in regular-sized homes are isolated from "each other, neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important"? Not to mention, you say "We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life," but go on to describe yourselves as "We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) … we are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario." It sounds like you're saying that you make better decisions than your socioeconomic peers, who are willing to compromise their families in order to have more living space. Most middle-class people have to weigh many factors in deciding where to live and how to balance work and home and struggle with where to draw the lines, but ultimately may draw them differently from you. Your (apparently theoretical) plan is one approach, but not the only one that works for families.

OK, one more thing--do you really not see the difference between having a SECOND bathroom and having five or six bathrooms?

This is the agent who posted the google link to Montgomery County. To the parent: I love you. That was great. And yes, you were way nicer than I was, but I get so irritated with people who think they're the "only" person to have such ideas, and that they found a way around the system, and that it won't cost what people are saying it will for permits. (And for the other PP, tearing down may help you avoid the impact fees, but you still have to get a demo permit and PAY for the demo - you'll pay one way or the other.) But all of this is symptomatic of the attitude of people who think they're smarter than the rest of us, which as the parental poster states, you really are on a high horse.

Op- here. We are not on a high horse. We really just want this for our family. We totally respect what you may want for your family including 6 bathrooms or two. I actually really don't see the difference between cleaning two toilets vs. 6. More than one sucks. That's all I want to clean. Ever. Yes, of course, six is worst but what I am saying is that I don't want more than one.

And, you are totally right, my kids may feel something different and want to fit in and whatever. It isn't that I don't care. It is just that we believe we get to run the family and that they will get to run theirs. We certainly do not think we are the "only" people to have this type of idea. Are you insane?! Nobody in the humanity is original at this point. Obviously. And, clearly, we are looking at websites where others have had this exact same idea. We are middle class in that our HHI is 135K in this area and with two daycare costs and rent that pretty much means we are on a very tight budget. Once the daycare eases up we can start funding retirement and college. So, still on a tight budget. Yeah, maybe we are trying to game the system. So what?! The system sucks. Ever sit at your cubicle or whatever you do and look outside and think...surely, this cannot be what life is about. But, we still care enough about our kids (despite what you may think re our not caring what their friends are doing) to want to be able to fund their education so that they have the opportunity to make their own choices and pay for our retirement so that we do not burden so we must stay somewhere that has a decent economy and good jobs. Come on, we are not better than you and don't imagine that we are AT ALL. But, if we make it work, we'll make sure to let you know so that you can follow suit since you seem to really be kind of grumpy about the system too. Otherwise, why would you delight in the fact that there are these costs that we had not considered? And, I would LOVE to meet your friends who chose alternate lifestyles. They sound awesome. Man, life is too short. My kids will get to make their own choices and their own mistakes. I am not sacrificing every single piece of life in the eventuality that they will be pissed when they are teens or young adults. Besides, as you said, who knows how the family dynamics will turn out. Maybe they'll think it is amazing that they got to do something different growing up. I know that's how I view my childhood.

Wow--project much? What did I post that makes them sound awesome? I'll tell you, two of those three families were headed by adults who had very strong feelings about "how people should live," and their kids really struggled because they went to school with lots of other kids who got to have all kinds of things (like hot showers and sneakers for gym…not cable TV and McDonalds), yet appeared to be happy and healthy. It was messed up, and they all bolted the second they could. One even moved to a friend's house while we were still in high school and had nothing to do with his parents after the age of 16. It may be your utopia but you seem a little rigid about it (your kids are under 4 and you've already decided no sleepovers?)

I'm perfectly happy with my life choices--can't see where I implied that I am grumpy about the system--unless you mean where I said that everyone needs to make choices and tradeoffs….that's basically true no matter who you are, or where you live, or how much money you have. Just because you struggle to make the best choice and choose where to compromise doesn't mean you're unhappy after you make it.


It was a joke. Good grief. Get a sense of humor. My kids have shoes and hot water. We do not intend on having them go without either esp. in this climate. They, in fact, have eaten McDonalds...ghasp! I don't know what happened- something about a road trip and hunger and overriding our very rigid convictions for obvious practicality. We all survived. But, yeah, you've got me on the sleepover. And obviously, if kids are struggling to the point where they want to couch surf at 16 then there's been a breakdown in communication and a lack of reassessment of a situation that is clearly not working for the family. We have strong views but they are not so rigid that we would see our kids struggling to this degree or even far before that point and not try to figure out some solutions. What I am saying is that since 16 is about 13 years away for us, we'd like to take it one step at a time. No need to assume there will be trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Wow--project much? What did I post that makes them sound awesome? I'll tell you, two of those three families were headed by adults who had very strong feelings about "how people should live," and their kids really struggled because they went to school with lots of other kids who got to have all kinds of things (like hot showers and sneakers for gym…not cable TV and McDonalds), yet appeared to be happy and healthy. It was messed up, and they all bolted the second they could. One even moved to a friend's house while we were still in high school and had nothing to do with his parents after the age of 16. It may be your utopia but you seem a little rigid about it (your kids are under 4 and you've already decided no sleepovers?)

I'm perfectly happy with my life choices--can't see where I implied that I am grumpy about the system--unless you mean where I said that everyone needs to make choices and tradeoffs….that's basically true no matter who you are, or where you live, or how much money you have. Just because you struggle to make the best choice and choose where to compromise doesn't mean you're unhappy after you make it.

It was a joke. Good grief. Get a sense of humor. My kids have shoes and hot water. We do not intend on having them go without either esp. in this climate. They, in fact, have eaten McDonalds...ghasp! I don't know what happened- something about a road trip and hunger and overriding our very rigid convictions for obvious practicality. We all survived. But, yeah, you've got me on the sleepover. And obviously, if kids are struggling to the point where they want to couch surf at 16 then there's been a breakdown in communication and a lack of reassessment of a situation that is clearly not working for the family. We have strong views but they are not so rigid that we would see our kids struggling to this degree or even far before that point and not try to figure out some solutions. What I am saying is that since 16 is about 13 years away for us, we'd like to take it one step at a time. No need to assume there will be trouble.

Of course not! It's not like any of your previous posts have included blatant red flags:

Anonymous wrote:And, you are totally right, my kids may feel something different and want to fit in and whatever. It isn't that I don't care. It is just that we believe we get to run the family and that they will get to run theirs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are dreaming.

Building permits in MoCo are at least $50,000.

So you have your $300K left to buy the lot and build the structure. To comply with MoCo's building permits, you are probably going to have to spend at least $200,000 for the structure, water control, site prep and other details.

You have $100,000 to buy a lot.

This is false. Even at 5% of a 400k buildout would only be 20k.

http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/fee/CurrentFeeResidentialBuilding.aspx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are dreaming.

Building permits in MoCo are at least $50,000.

So you have your $300K left to buy the lot and build the structure. To comply with MoCo's building permits, you are probably going to have to spend at least $200,000 for the structure, water control, site prep and other details.

You have $100,000 to buy a lot.

This is false. Even at 5% of a 400k buildout would only be 20k.

http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/fee/CurrentFeeResidentialBuilding.aspx

These are permit fees. Montgomery county will also charge development impact fees that are used for road maintenance and schools if you are starting with an empty plot of land that could run close to $50k. Impact fees are waived with tear down infill lots.

[Anonymous]

I'm with other PPs who suggest buying an existing small house close-in. And there are more tiny houses close-in than further out. What could be greener than reuse? Take any extra cash you have to make it green - insulation, geothermal system, PV electric and hot water, rain catchment, etc. . I really think you're looking in the wrong area if you want a humble new construction green abode to retire in. WTF would you want to retire in DC anyway?
I'm not trolling. I'm actually in a renewable energy profession. We plan to take our nest egg and retire somewhere where the cost of living is low and go green in a culture and locale that better supports that lifestyle.

If youre bound for DC - takoma & close-in SS are good bets.

[Anonymous]

Don't be discouraged, OP. Keep in mind that the DCUM forums pull from every part of the DC sprawl. Your family, your house, your life. I have a hard time understanding the hostility toward the idea. I would guess that you will end up in a cool, funky little neighborhood where you will not find this kind of resistance.