Building a Tiny House on a MoCo lot - possible? implications?

[Anonymous]

To build on a empty lot, montgomery county charges $50,000 impact fee. You still need to pay for building permit and other fee. To connect to public water/sewer, you are looking at almost $1,000 per foot charged by wssc. Popcorn will not be cheaper either. It is hard to believe montgomery county will allow a house to be built w/o heating. I suggest you go to county's permit department in Rockville and talk to someone there about your dream house. If you present your case as environmental friendly, county May reflex some of the regulation. They are actually helpful.
I would love to have a house like that in my neighborhood, so don't worry about your new neighbors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To build on a empty lot, montgomery county charges $50,000 impact fee. You still need to pay for building permit and other fee. To connect to public water/sewer, you are looking at almost $1,000 per foot charged by wssc. Popcorn will not be cheaper either. It is hard to believe montgomery county will allow a house to be built w/o heating. I suggest you go to county's permit department in Rockville and talk to someone there about your dream house. If you present your case as environmental friendly, county May reflex some of the regulation. They are actually helpful.
I would love to have a house like that in my neighborhood, so don't worry about your new neighbors.

It should be pepco. The auto correction really out of control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To build on a empty lot, montgomery county charges $50,000 impact fee. You still need to pay for building permit and other fee. To connect to public water/sewer, you are looking at almost $1,000 per foot charged by wssc. Popcorn will not be cheaper either. It is hard to believe montgomery county will allow a house to be built w/o heating. I suggest you go to county's permit department in Rockville and talk to someone there about your dream house. If you present your case as environmental friendly, county May reflex some of the regulation. They are actually helpful.
I would love to have a house like that in my neighborhood, so don't worry about your new neighbors.

It should be pepco. The auto correction really out of control.

NP here. I laughed at Popcorn, it was funny! I was thinking popcorn ceilings and wondering how that would save anyone any sort of real money.

Anyway, as an agent who knows land and has done this for many many years, you, my friend, are living a pipe dream. I can't believe how many comments about backing up the $50K permitting fees there were without one single commenter going to this site called Google. Here, allow me. Let me google that for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=montgomery+county+maryland+impact+fees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To build on a empty lot, montgomery county charges $50,000 impact fee. You still need to pay for building permit and other fee. To connect to public water/sewer, you are looking at almost $1,000 per foot charged by wssc. Popcorn will not be cheaper either. It is hard to believe montgomery county will allow a house to be built w/o heating. I suggest you go to county's permit department in Rockville and talk to someone there about your dream house. If you present your case as environmental friendly, county May reflex some of the regulation. They are actually helpful.
I would love to have a house like that in my neighborhood, so don't worry about your new neighbors.

It should be pepco. The auto correction really out of control.

NP here. I laughed at Popcorn, it was funny! I was thinking popcorn ceilings and wondering how that would save anyone any sort of real money.

Anyway, as an agent who knows land and has done this for many many years, you, my friend, are living a pipe dream. I can't believe how many comments about backing up the $50K permitting fees there were without one single commenter going to this site called Google. Here, allow me. Let me google that for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=montgomery+county+maryland+impact+fees

According to the impact fee schedule and assuming that the local schools are not filled to capacity, the impact fees are just under $30k for a single family detached home on an undeveloped piece of property and are waived for teardowns.

[Anonymous]

I like this idea. And several councilmembers might too. Might be worth an email or a call to them, with a request for potential legislation that could exempt or reduce impact taxes for certain structures like this.

Marc Elrich is the Takoma Park area Councilmember I think. George Leventhal is near there as well. Roger Berliner is all about environmentally friendly things too.

[Anonymous]

OP, this is intriguing. Can you talk a bit about how family members get a little privacy in such a space?

[Anonymous]

OP, it is an intriguing idea, but I do wonder if you wouldn't be served by buying a small existing house close in and greening it up over time.

What do you do for a living? What will a commute be like for either of you? Would one of you be a SAHP to manage the garden/small farm you'd have going?

There are a lot of small ranches in the mid-$300s in Four Corners...lot sizes vary a bit, but you might have a better luck trying something like that. A finished basement playroom in winter would be an awfully nice thing.

[Anonymous]

4-27-2014 19:44 here:
OP, I am not familiar enough with this site to know if there is a way to send a private message. How can I get ahold of you? I would love to talk about the concept my efforts here in Falls Church.

[Anonymous]

I just can't imagine 500-800 sq feet with two elementary-age kids or teenagers. My 9 yo is almost the size of an adult already. Its hard to imagine when your kids are small, but even for minimalists, their stuff takes up space. You really need enough room for 4 adults in your 500-800 sq feet. Where will they study? Where will their clothes and shoes and coats and snowpants and treasures and books and art projects go?

It does seem more practical, "green", and less expensive to buy an existing small house. Maybe you could put your hobbit house on a piece of land for a vacation home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is so much more "green" to update an existing old home to suit your purposes. It is so ridiculous that people buy empty green lots and put tiny houses or re-purposed materials houses on them and think they're living "green". You should just buy a house that's already there. There are plenty of small houses that wouldn't have to have all the wasted energy and materials to build a tiny house.

Yes, you are right, there are many small houses here. I would not say there are many houses in the 500sq ft. to 800sq. ft. range which is our sweet spot. We are willing to go as low as 400 though. Furthermore, the design is part of the thing. If you are living somewhere that small you actually want it built exactly how you need it not a bunch of cubes inside a big cube but lots of windows, open areas, and so forth. Lastly, many older homes would require a lot of money to get solar panels, top-notch insulation, water efficient toilets, heating, water catchment. Many of these dwellings are built to last and green, something that converting or tearing down (completely out of our price range) would take years and tons of $$ to do.

We went the "not so big house" route with a 24x48 modular. It was the smallest new house built in Arlington that year--less than 1,200 square feet--and we fit two bedrooms, two full baths, multiple closets and a mudroom/laundry room plus a kitchen, living room, and dining room in that footprint. We got the benefits of modular building (tight envelope, significant insulation), were able to design the floor plan to our liking, installed high-efficiency systems, and did other things to allow the space to be expanded in the future (e.g., dug a 9-foot basement so it could be finished later with a full-height ceiling, used framed trusses instead of scissor trusses in the attic so additional living space could be added upstairs). It was a few years ago but we were able to do the permitting, site work, and building for about $200K and Arlington, like MoCo, has a lot of insane permitting rules and prerequisites. The lot price was on top of that.

A tiny house gives you very little flexibility. There are other ways to build green--as others have suggested, there are tons of small houses being torn down, and renovating one of those would likely be a greener option--and while lots has been published about tiny houses, you never read about people trying to raise a family in one of them…probably for good reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Permits alone in MoCo are greater than $50,000. How are you going to build for $100,000?

you have no idea wtf you are talking about. fees might be $4,000


http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/DPS/fee/CurrentFeeResidentialBuilding.aspx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Permits alone in MoCo are greater than $50,000. How are you going to build for $100,000?

you have no idea wtf you are talking about. fees might be $4,000


http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/DPS/fee/CurrentFeeResidentialBuilding.aspx

Bad link

[Anonymous]

I don't know ow old your kids are but I live in a one bedroom, a huge jump up from the studio I had while my dd was 0-4 yrs old and she and I both wish we had a lot more space. She especially, as she's a kid and goes to her friends houses and compares theirs to ours.

Think long and hard about your kid having a couple of friends over after school, or having a sleepover.

[Anonymous]

To the realtor who knows how to Google, thanks. We actually did not know about impact fees (we are at the very beginning of this process) so we didn’t think to search for that. We thought permitting was going to be the biggest issue.
To the person that looked through the link and noted it might actually not be 50K, thanks as well. We will read more thoroughly and actually talk to the folks in Rockville.
To the individuals suggesting legislative action, seeking a green exception, etc…I really like that idea. It strikes me as maybe turning this into some sort of movement for better (read affordable, smaller footprint, commutable) housing. But with two FT jobs right now and two kids under 4, we feel stretched for time. Then again, anything that’s worth doing seems pretty unsurmountable at first. Thank so much for the info on the council members. We are really going to think hard about this aspect over the next few months.
The question about privacy is wonderful and I’ll tackle that with the posts from those who are craving more room in their current situations/have large children/etc. I think the issue is complex. First, I will say that our ideas of privacy and space are completely cultural. I am not from the United States and the concept of having a room or space for everyone in a family is at odds with my concept of family and well-being. I am used to multi-generational housing units where everyone thoroughly enjoys begin together much of the time. My partner has also spent significant time abroad and we have both travelled to places where families simply do not live in the same types of structures that we think of as housing. Nevertheless, both of us are quite aware of and cognizant of the fact that our children and their peers live here and now. So, to the poster that said their child is always comparing their home to other homes, I will say that I frankly would have to teach my children about the realities of the world and how unbelievably lucky they are to have food, security, a warm place to sleep, healthcare, and parents that care about them. Period. I care not whether their friends have “nicer” clothes, “better” cars, “bigger” rooms, or whatever. And, I will teach them (to the extent possible) to realize the premium that those kids’ parents are paying for those things and that space. While their parents are checking their iPhones for work mail on a Sat., we will be gardening with them or catching lightning bugs. We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life, at least in the way we conceptualize quality of life. And, even if we did have all of the money in the world, we would still really, honestly, not want more than about 800sq. ft. of living space. It is just not us. However, we probably would just put that real estate on a cliff overlooking a nice, warm ocean ?. Perhaps our children will grow up to want a McMansion or perhaps they will grow up appreciating what we’ve done and the decisions we made to grow a family that looked inward and focused on not becoming isolated from each other, our neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important in the short span of time that we have on Earth. Who knows? In the meantime, my husband and I will try to do what we think is best for them and us. What else can any parent do?

The second piece of this, of course, is the logistical need for space as children grow and mature. We need space where we can have privacy as a couple (which I think I’ve addressed in terms of the soundproof enclosed space with a bed) and they need privacy as well. Again, I think design can take care of much of this. Privacy of this kind does not require a 300sq. foot room. It simply does not. In terms of having friends over, playing, being noisy, moving, etc…well, there are many variations that we can consider when the time comes. Or, that we can build in from the beginning. Many of these builders will actually work with you to design the home. In the example below, the master could be lofted above the living room and the conventional bedroom could be split in two with a false wall during the pre-teen/teenage years. They will be sharing a room for at least a decade longer, though.

http://www.nationwide-homes.com/ecocottages/main.cfm?pagename=ecoplandetail&planId=1235

In terms of other privacy (conversation/psychological), again design can help. A porch that has a way to be heated during the fall and spring, a living room that is set off from the “bedroom” areas and, of course, taking advantage of the fact that we live in an area with so many amenities. If you need to get away from your family, well there is so much indoor and outdoor space to choose from here.

As far as the stuff, I love the poster who mentioned treasures, books, and art projects as, indeed, we struggle with the art project one right now. They are little hoarders, aren’t they?! ? Our oldest is quite prolific at 3.8yo. But, honestly, we just do a bi-weekly clean out of treasures and art. Right now, we toss the art without her noticing (we keep a few pieces we want to collect) and the toys operate on a one-toy-in-one-toy-donated principle so we are pretty set on that. All of their toys could probably fit in small containers under high beds or a set of shelves. They seem non-the-sadder for it. In terms of treasures, our eldest is quite keen on picking up every acorn and flower she sees. But, we can easily keep a container on the covered porch for these sorts of things. All in moderation and I think teaching them the value of space and lessening the value that our society places on stuff is important whether or not we can make this work. As far as clothes, they have 12 outfits that match/are interchangeable each per season (two seasons plus layers), plus snow, rain, and swimming gear. It all fits in one dresser. They will get bigger, of course, but we will also be holding on to far less hand-me-downs at that point so I think it will balance out. We just need to be smart about storage solutions. Two to three pairs of shoes that get worn out before being replaced is also our norm. As far as studying, many a families all over the world have their kids study on the kitchen table. We can also fashion a small desk that flips up or down with a folding chair.
For those suggesting VA, we’d love to be able to consider it but we are a queer family and we simply must have legal protections in place for ourselves and our kids. We are not willing to gamble putting together a hodgepodge of legal documents to override the default legal scheme. Virginia is gorgeous and there are definitely communities we like there but it is a non-starter for that reason alone.

As far as the “green” element in tearing down, or improving, or building new, I suppose it depends on the details. We have yet to see a house in our target price range (under 300K for turn-key readiness) that would work. The poster in Arlington brings up some great points in terms of what you can fit in a small space. Modular is definitely an option but we like the hobbitat aesthetic. There are modular options that might work. We have no desire for a second bathroom EVER, having had 2.5 and 2 before. Literally, we absolutely do not understand why there have to be so many bathrooms in today’s houses. We also do not want a finished basement. I cannot imagine a tougher winter than the past one with a 3.5yo and a 4mo that could not be outside in the sub-zero wind chill for very long. If we made that work, we can make it work from here on out, particularly if they can hop outside and play until they can stand the cold no more.

As for sleepovers, we’re not interested in hosting or attending. Yep, we are THOSE people. But, should this be some kind of VERY IMPORTANT thing for our kids, we are happy to host a camp-out in our garden with smores, tents, outside movies, etc. Both of our kids have summer b-days so we’re set in that regard as well.
And, lastly, the commute question and work question. This is actually big. We both work right now though have done all kinds of schedules since we had kids trying to maximize the time that we spend together including staggered 4-day weeks (M-TH for one and T-F for the other), PT/FT splits, etc. We do not really see how we could be financially stable in older age and help our kids with college unless we are both working. We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) but have grad school loans. Right now one of us works in MoCo and the other in DC. Both are red line accessible. We are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario. We also do some consulting and teaching. So, we would accommodate the whole thing holistically so that we can be at home to care for the garden as needed. We have a lot of education, thus some flexibility, and are willing to work very hard to make things work. Of course, we are very lucky to even have that option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the realtor who knows how to Google, thanks. We actually did not know about impact fees (we are at the very beginning of this process) so we didn’t think to search for that. We thought permitting was going to be the biggest issue.
To the person that looked through the link and noted it might actually not be 50K, thanks as well. We will read more thoroughly and actually talk to the folks in Rockville.
To the individuals suggesting legislative action, seeking a green exception, etc…I really like that idea. It strikes me as maybe turning this into some sort of movement for better (read affordable, smaller footprint, commutable) housing. But with two FT jobs right now and two kids under 4, we feel stretched for time. Then again, anything that’s worth doing seems pretty unsurmountable at first. Thank so much for the info on the council members. We are really going to think hard about this aspect over the next few months.
The question about privacy is wonderful and I’ll tackle that with the posts from those who are craving more room in their current situations/have large children/etc. I think the issue is complex. First, I will say that our ideas of privacy and space are completely cultural. I am not from the United States and the concept of having a room or space for everyone in a family is at odds with my concept of family and well-being. I am used to multi-generational housing units where everyone thoroughly enjoys begin together much of the time. My partner has also spent significant time abroad and we have both travelled to places where families simply do not live in the same types of structures that we think of as housing. Nevertheless, both of us are quite aware of and cognizant of the fact that our children and their peers live here and now. So, to the poster that said their child is always comparing their home to other homes, I will say that I frankly would have to teach my children about the realities of the world and how unbelievably lucky they are to have food, security, a warm place to sleep, healthcare, and parents that care about them. Period. I care not whether their friends have “nicer” clothes, “better” cars, “bigger” rooms, or whatever. And, I will teach them (to the extent possible) to realize the premium that those kids’ parents are paying for those things and that space. While their parents are checking their iPhones for work mail on a Sat., we will be gardening with them or catching lightning bugs. We were not born into a class that allows us to buy much more without compromising time with each other significantly or quality of life, at least in the way we conceptualize quality of life. And, even if we did have all of the money in the world, we would still really, honestly, not want more than about 800sq. ft. of living space. It is just not us. However, we probably would just put that real estate on a cliff overlooking a nice, warm ocean ?. Perhaps our children will grow up to want a McMansion or perhaps they will grow up appreciating what we’ve done and the decisions we made to grow a family that looked inward and focused on not becoming isolated from each other, our neighbors, and the things that are actually “real” and important in the short span of time that we have on Earth. Who knows? In the meantime, my husband and I will try to do what we think is best for them and us. What else can any parent do?

The second piece of this, of course, is the logistical need for space as children grow and mature. We need space where we can have privacy as a couple (which I think I’ve addressed in terms of the soundproof enclosed space with a bed) and they need privacy as well. Again, I think design can take care of much of this. Privacy of this kind does not require a 300sq. foot room. It simply does not. In terms of having friends over, playing, being noisy, moving, etc…well, there are many variations that we can consider when the time comes. Or, that we can build in from the beginning. Many of these builders will actually work with you to design the home. In the example below, the master could be lofted above the living room and the conventional bedroom could be split in two with a false wall during the pre-teen/teenage years. They will be sharing a room for at least a decade longer, though.

http://www.nationwide-homes.com/ecocottages/main.cfm?pagename=ecoplandetail&planId=1235

In terms of other privacy (conversation/psychological), again design can help. A porch that has a way to be heated during the fall and spring, a living room that is set off from the “bedroom” areas and, of course, taking advantage of the fact that we live in an area with so many amenities. If you need to get away from your family, well there is so much indoor and outdoor space to choose from here.

As far as the stuff, I love the poster who mentioned treasures, books, and art projects as, indeed, we struggle with the art project one right now. They are little hoarders, aren’t they?! ? Our oldest is quite prolific at 3.8yo. But, honestly, we just do a bi-weekly clean out of treasures and art. Right now, we toss the art without her noticing (we keep a few pieces we want to collect) and the toys operate on a one-toy-in-one-toy-donated principle so we are pretty set on that. All of their toys could probably fit in small containers under high beds or a set of shelves. They seem non-the-sadder for it. In terms of treasures, our eldest is quite keen on picking up every acorn and flower she sees. But, we can easily keep a container on the covered porch for these sorts of things. All in moderation and I think teaching them the value of space and lessening the value that our society places on stuff is important whether or not we can make this work. As far as clothes, they have 12 outfits that match/are interchangeable each per season (two seasons plus layers), plus snow, rain, and swimming gear. It all fits in one dresser. They will get bigger, of course, but we will also be holding on to far less hand-me-downs at that point so I think it will balance out. We just need to be smart about storage solutions. Two to three pairs of shoes that get worn out before being replaced is also our norm. As far as studying, many a families all over the world have their kids study on the kitchen table. We can also fashion a small desk that flips up or down with a folding chair.
For those suggesting VA, we’d love to be able to consider it but we are a queer family and we simply must have legal protections in place for ourselves and our kids. We are not willing to gamble putting together a hodgepodge of legal documents to override the default legal scheme. Virginia is gorgeous and there are definitely communities we like there but it is a non-starter for that reason alone.

As far as the “green” element in tearing down, or improving, or building new, I suppose it depends on the details. We have yet to see a house in our target price range (under 300K for turn-key readiness) that would work. The poster in Arlington brings up some great points in terms of what you can fit in a small space. Modular is definitely an option but we like the hobbitat aesthetic. There are modular options that might work. We have no desire for a second bathroom EVER, having had 2.5 and 2 before. Literally, we absolutely do not understand why there have to be so many bathrooms in today’s houses. We also do not want a finished basement. I cannot imagine a tougher winter than the past one with a 3.5yo and a 4mo that could not be outside in the sub-zero wind chill for very long. If we made that work, we can make it work from here on out, particularly if they can hop outside and play until they can stand the cold no more.

As for sleepovers, we’re not interested in hosting or attending. Yep, we are THOSE people. But, should this be some kind of VERY IMPORTANT thing for our kids, we are happy to host a camp-out in our garden with smores, tents, outside movies, etc. Both of our kids have summer b-days so we’re set in that regard as well.
And, lastly, the commute question and work question. This is actually big. We both work right now though have done all kinds of schedules since we had kids trying to maximize the time that we spend together including staggered 4-day weeks (M-TH for one and T-F for the other), PT/FT splits, etc. We do not really see how we could be financially stable in older age and help our kids with college unless we are both working. We are pretty middle-class for this area (which is, of course, super rich in most places) but have grad school loans. Right now one of us works in MoCo and the other in DC. Both are red line accessible. We are your typical DC cube/shared office/think-tank/NGO scenario. We also do some consulting and teaching. So, we would accommodate the whole thing holistically so that we can be at home to care for the garden as needed. We have a lot of education, thus some flexibility, and are willing to work very hard to make things work. Of course, we are very lucky to even have that option.

Are you not aware that Virginia's gay marriage ban was recently struck down by a federal district judge in Norfolk? The 4th Circuit will hear this case on May 13. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd put the likeliness of the decision being overturned at 5%, going off of other federal appeals decisions including the recent (summer 2013) Supreme Court decision.
Federal Judge Overturns Virginia’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/14/us/federal-judge-overturns-virginias-same-sex-marriage-ban.html?_r=0

I understand you not wanting to consider VA for the LGBT reason, but you may not have to wait very long until Virginia joins the ranks of Maryland and other progressive states.

VA voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, and in 2013 Virginia voted in a Democratic governor and attorney general. Things are looking up in the Commonwealth.

Virginia's New Attorney General Will Not Defend Gay-Marriage Ban http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/01/23/265050444/virginias-new-attorney-general-will-not-defend-gay-marriage-ban