Would you recommend a legal career?

[Anonymous]

I know plenty of lawyers in government.

I see them rooting through the trash in the hallways, trying to find a few crumbs of a munchkin or a half-eaten burger they can gnaw on to quieten the hunger pangs, if only for a few mintures.

I see them going from door-to-door with their kids, trying to hire them out to clean chimneys or drains.

I see them in Costco buying jumbo boxes of husky trash-bags so their wives will finally have something to cover their nakedness.

But above all, I see them gathered in Farragut Square at lunchtime, staring longingly down K Street towards the offices of those in BigLaw, dreaming of the life they could have had, standing up in a hot-tub full of vintage Dom Perignon urinating on a team of associates, who cry out with gratitude at the golden shower with which the partner has blessed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of lawyers in government.

I see them rooting through the trash in the hallways, trying to find a few crumbs of a munchkin or a half-eaten burger they can gnaw on to quieten the hunger pangs, if only for a few mintures.

I see them going from door-to-door with their kids, trying to hire them out to clean chimneys or drains.

I see them in Costco buying jumbo boxes of husky trash-bags so their wives will finally have something to cover their nakedness.

But above all, I see them gathered in Farragut Square at lunchtime, staring longingly down K Street towards the offices of those in BigLaw, dreaming of the life they could have had, standing up in a hot-tub full of vintage Dom Perignon urinating on a team of associates, who cry out with gratitude at the golden shower with which the partner has blessed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

GS 15 attorney here. DH is also a GS 15 attorney. We live in McLean. Our collective salary is $290k. Our kids go to public schools, but we find the academics superior to the private alternatives in NOVA. I know our salary is not as high as some of our neighbors, but we do gain time. We work 40 hours a week. We actually use our backyard. My neighbors in finance and BigLaw are never home.

You raise an excellent point. What type of lifestyle does one expect? I don't think many law students, especially women, realize how many hours are required for BigLaw. You have to ask yourself how much the extra money means to you.

[Anonymous]

"The Government" is too large of an entity. Working at DOJ, State, FTC, etc. is different than being a HHS or SSA attorney and they hire from way different law schools.

Ok, that may be true, but people have to think about what they like doing. I'm at DOJ, top 20 law school, clerkship, etc. and my position is ok, but I think there may be some positions at HHS/SSA that I might like better, because I've discovered that hard core litigation probably isn't for me. You need to do what you like, not what you think will be impressive to someone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who goes on to do trial work in the state and county systems, where the rubber hits the road so to speak?

I think local connections really help in starting out in county/state courts. Most lawyers I've found with a healthy practice in those courts went to law school in that state, did decently, did internships with prosecutor's offices or clerkships with local judges. In criminal law, they often start in the prosecutor's office and then switch to defense after they've learned the ropes. But I've also seen defense attorneys who went straight into defense private practice out of school. The successful ones usually had a good mentor who helped them. It also helps if you have a niche.

So, there you go. Why so much emphasis on HYP Law and trying to get to BigLaw when there are real needs to be met and served at the state and county levels with smaller firms or in solo practice?

Just to explain why more people don't go that route: a lot of state budgets were hit hard during the recession. Prosecutor's offices were not hiring, public defenders were taking furlough days and the PD offices were asking recent graduates if they wanted to clerk for free. If your connections were in a state that faced a budget deficit when you graduated, the picture was not rosy.

Solo = starting your own business, with all the risks and potential gains that come with that. No income until you have enough clients to cover expenses. No clients until you build a name for yourself. Clients who won't/can't pay. No one to turn to for advice when your client's case turns more complicated than you expected.

Small firms are also unpredictable. Their life is often feast or famine. They usually hire people they know personally or have seen in court. They often don't pay well for an inexperienced attorney, and they have their pick of graduates who didn't make big law.

All things for people to think about before entering law school, and reasons not to go into serious debt for your degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

"The Government" is too large of an entity. Working at DOJ, State, FTC, etc. is different than being a HHS or SSA attorney and they hire from way different law schools.

Ok, that may be true, but people have to think about what they like doing. I'm at DOJ, top 20 law school, clerkship, etc. and my position is ok, but I think there may be some positions at HHS/SSA that I might like better, because I've discovered that hard core litigation probably isn't for me. You need to do what you like, not what you think will be impressive to someone else.

Wisest thing said here. Bravo.

[Anonymous]

What's this T14 thing? Is that something Georgetown grads make up to make themselves feel as though they're in a different class from GW grads? Because, seriously, if it is - thanks for the laugh. Really. You're cracking me up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

"The Government" is too large of an entity. Working at DOJ, State, FTC, etc. is different than being a HHS or SSA attorney and they hire from way different law schools.

Ok, that may be true, but people have to think about what they like doing. I'm at DOJ, top 20 law school, clerkship, etc. and my position is ok, but I think there may be some positions at HHS/SSA that I might like better, because I've discovered that hard core litigation probably isn't for me. You need to do what you like, not what you think will be impressive to someone else.

PP here that you quoted. Great response and I agree with what you said just there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's this T14 thing? Is that something Georgetown grads make up to make themselves feel as though they're in a different class from GW grads? Because, seriously, if it is - thanks for the laugh. Really. You're cracking me up.

Mmhmm. Yes, you seem very secure and confident. Thanks for letting us know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's this T14 thing? Is that something Georgetown grads make up to make themselves feel as though they're in a different class from GW grads? Because, seriously, if it is - thanks for the laugh. Really. You're cracking me up.

It is a common category used to describe law schools. You clearly don't what you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school_rankings_in_the_United_States#Schools_that_rank_in_the_top_14_.28aka_.22T14.22.29

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of lawyers in government.

I see them rooting through the trash in the hallways, trying to find a few crumbs of a munchkin or a half-eaten burger they can gnaw on to quieten the hunger pangs, if only for a few mintures.

I see them going from door-to-door with their kids, trying to hire them out to clean chimneys or drains.

I see them in Costco buying jumbo boxes of husky trash-bags so their wives will finally have something to cover their nakedness.

But above all, I see them gathered in Farragut Square at lunchtime, staring longingly down K Street towards the offices of those in BigLaw, dreaming of the life they could have had, standing up in a hot-tub full of vintage Dom Perignon urinating on a team of associates, who cry out with gratitude at the golden shower with which the partner has blessed them.

Stay away from the brown acid, people.

One of my best friends is the partner who just told all those associates they're out the door next month and will be independent contractors if they want to stay. I know very few upper level govt. lawyers who are good, who dream of life in BigLaw, it's our/their BigLaw friends who wish they could get off the hamster wheel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

I never knew being a big law attorney was considered glamorous.

It's not if you know what you're talking about. They're glorified high-paid (gross, not by the hour) wage slaves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

I never knew being a big law attorney was considered glamorous.

It's not if you know what you're talking about. They're glorified high-paid (gross, not by the hour) wage slaves.

Nobody said the job was glamorous. But it certainly can afford one a glamorous lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

I never knew being a big law attorney was considered glamorous.

It's not if you know what you're talking about. They're glorified high-paid (gross, not by the hour) wage slaves.

Nobody said the job was glamorous. But it certainly can afford one a glamorous lifestyle.

I was a partner at a big firm and left for a government job and I live in Chevy Chase. So you can do one and then the other.
I have been practicing for 20 years, and I have yet to meet someone who made the decision to permanently leave working for a big law firm and has regretted the decision. You have to like the business of law to succeed at a big law firm for the long term.

At this time, I would not recommend going to law school unless you are going to go to a top ten school. The practice of law has changed. Technology has reduced the need for a large number of junior associates, so there are less entry level positions. At my firm, there were 20 people in my starting class, but 7 years later there were only 2 of us left when it came time to make partner. That was the model. there was a lot of junior lawyer work to be done and firms needed the bodies. I bet the size of the starting class at this point is closer to 10 than 20 and I know the partnership track is now closer to 9 than 7.

[Anonymous]

Am I glad I went to law school? Yes, because I'm doing exactly the kind of public interest law I love and wanted to go to law school for. I'm a public interest attorney and have worked for DOJ and four non-profits in my field, never BigLaw (so no point of comparison there). Now, granted, I am a litigator so although I'm not working BigLaw hours all the time there are many weeks when I'm putting in very long hours. And I make shit money compared to BigLaw or federal government, so that part is not anything anyone would envy me for. And I still have law school debt to pay off quite a few years out. It's a good thing my dh makes a lot more than I do because if he were to be hit by a bus tomorrow we couldn't live on just my salary.

Would I recommend someone interested in "social justice" go to law school to get a law degree and change the world? Would I do it over again? Hell no. I wouldn't go to law school at all -- I'd be something besides a lawyer (preferably in a field where you actually learn something about something).

First, unless you can go to one of the top law schools in the country, I think law school is generally a waste of time (and I went to the top-ranked law school in the country, and it was still pretty much a waste of time in terms of teaching me anything I needed to know about how to be a lawyer. Brand name recognition, great, yes, but for as smart as our profs were they still weren't real lawyers, most of them, and law school was mostly an exercise in navel gazing and "learning to think about the law.")

Second, you're going to take on a crapload of debt, which will severely limit your ability to go work for a non-profit that pays little to nothing, even with loan forgiveness or assistance from your school. Most of the lawyers I know who went to school with visions of achieving liberty and justice for all sold out to BigLaw (back in the day when you could actually sell out to BigLaw pretty easily) because the reality of six figures of debt overcame the starry-eyed vision of achieving liberty and justice for all. Even without huge debt it's extremely hard to have a decent lifestyle on what many non-profits pay if you are in a high cost of living area.

Third, it's actually really competitive to get jobs saving the world, at least in my field. Most non-profits/social or other public interest organizations have no resources to train new lawyers, so they look for people who already have experience. But because there are so many idealistic young lawyers who want to save the world, they can be picky enough to want experience in the field -- and not just any experience. It can be one hell of a Catch-22 trying to get the right experience to go save the world when you are a new attorney. Also, referring back to point one, in my experience, brand names matter to non-profits, especially national-level ones. And the non-profits want not only post-law school experience but also dedicated summer experience, clinicals, etc. to show that you really are a born-again true believer and not just someone who couldn't get a job in BigLaw so thinks maybe public interest is a good-enough fallback position.

Fourth, the economic crash affected not only BigLaw but also legal services/non-profits that do legal work, because without charitable contributions and foundational giving, there's no money to pay staff. Plenty of non-profits downsized legal and other staff during the recession. There's no safe harbor because it's all connected, both private and public interest. So if the economy is doing poorly, it's often just as hard if not harder to get a public interest legal job as it is a private legal job.

It's great that so many people have the starry-eyed idealism that a law degree will help them change the world for the better -- but I think that a hefty dose of realism is critically important to the prospective law student who wants to go into public interest law. You absolutely have to understand what you're doing and not just assume someone will give you a paying job because you want to save the world.