Would you recommend a legal career?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If you can go to a top law school, be top of your class, and get prestigious clerkships, you will have a stimulating, exciting, rewarding career in private practice, government, and/or academia. If not, I think it would be unwise to go to law school. There is a lot of terribly boring legal work to be done, and a glut of lawyers for even the undesirable jobs. If I had to do insurance defense work for a living, for example, I would want to slit my wrists.

This. I graduated middle of my class at georgetown ten years ago and it has been a rocky road (have been employed for most of it but unemployed now). My friends who went to Harvard yale etc have managed to get great jobs at doj, state, etc. that is much harder to do the less prestigious your school and record are.

Your school matters very little at 10 years out.

I agree with this for the most part. Top schools probably matter for Big Law for your entire career. Many of the attorneys have advised working for the government, and where one went to law school doesn't matter much there. I went to a tier 4 school 10 years ago, and I've been consistently employed since. I worked for a brief period at a mid-sized law firm. I knew early on it wasn't for me. I started at the entry level at my agency, but I'm a GS-15 now.

I'm the Chief Attorney in my section, and I'm routinely on hiring committees. I don't give much weight to where someone went to law school. I'm much more interested in personality, work ethic, and prior experience. If you're an insufferable douchebag, feel too entitled to do grunt work, and haven't even done basic research on the practice areas in my agency, then grades, law review, and school rank don't matter.

I would recommend law students extern for an agency to gain contacts and practical experience. I did this and it resulted in a job with the agency. We hire law students as paralegals at my agency, and they have been moderately successful in finding work. I would also recommend trying to limit debt to federal loans. If you get a low-paying entry-level job, then you can participate in the income-based loan repayment program. Your payments will be low, and the government will pay-off the remaining balance in 10 years.

I think the advice regarding law school rank is mostly fueled by struggling attorneys who went to high ranking law schools. In their mind, law school rank is very important. If they are struggling, then students who went to lower ranked schools must really be struggling. For the public sector, this isn't necessarily the case. Many of the attorneys in the public sector went to lower ranked schools. When they are now doing the hiring, they aren't swayed by school prestige.

"The Government" is too large of an entity. Working at DOJ, State, FTC, etc. is different than being a HHS or SSA attorney and they hire from way different law schools. Those in this thread that just throw out 'gov' should be more accurate in saying what agency are bigger prestige whores and which agencies are not. That would be helpful.

Do you mean different in that they have different hiring practices? Tier 4 grad here. I worked on a detail to DOJ as a SAUSA. I believe their honors program is more competitive, but being hired as a lateral isn't school dependent. Many of the attorneys from my agency have taken positions at DOJ. These attorneys had specialized experience, but didn't attend top ranked schools. For all but a few agencies, law school rank wouldn't matter much; however, specialized experience would matter.

Regarding the type of work and pay, much of the work is the same. Of course DOJ is litigation focused, but they are an identified support agency for many others. If you look at most legal offices, they will be practicing govt ethics, labor, environmental, procurement, and then the agency specific practice. Many practice before specialized administrative boards. Most working on the GS pay schedule, though some agencies have specialized pay banding. I believe Postal, Transportation, Treasury, Homeland Security, and DoD don't care much about school rank.

PP here. Thanks for the response. That was more helpful. For younger attorneys (below 30) it seemed that places like doj-antitrust, ftc were taking pretty much t14 grads but other agencies were much more open to taking grads of lower ranked schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Who goes on to do trial work in the state and county systems, where the rubber hits the road so to speak?

I think local connections really help in starting out in county/state courts. Most lawyers I've found with a healthy practice in those courts went to law school in that state, did decently, did internships with prosecutor's offices or clerkships with local judges. In criminal law, they often start in the prosecutor's office and then switch to defense after they've learned the ropes. But I've also seen defense attorneys who went straight into defense private practice out of school. The successful ones usually had a good mentor who helped them. It also helps if you have a niche.

So, there you go. Why so much emphasis on HYP Law and trying to get to BigLaw when there are real needs to be met and served at the state and county levels with smaller firms or in solo practice?

I am originally from Florida, and just looking at the list of the University of Florida Levin School of Law alumni list, there are quite a number of graduates who have gone on to illustrious careers in academia, business and government, including 4 U.S. Senators, 15 Representatives, 4 Governors, any number of states attorneys general, U.S. Ambassadors, the U.S. Trade Representative and any number of Federal judges.

I am not an attorney, but I counsel students on career choices all of the time, and the most common piece of advice I give is to constantly think outside the box, broaden your horizons within your chosen profession and be willing to take risks that will differentiate you from virtually everyone else in you field.

It just seems to me, at least on this board, that there is a lot of narrow thinking about legal careers and that the best jobs for lawyers are at the big NYC, Chicago, firms, etc., when in fact there is quite a universe of career paths out there by which one can be successful.

Because it's very difficult to pay back crushing law school debt working for the state, the county, or working for a solo who pays $40K and no benefits.

Well, I guess you made a losing bet. No need to feel sorry for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who goes on to do trial work in the state and county systems, where the rubber hits the road so to speak?

I think local connections really help in starting out in county/state courts. Most lawyers I've found with a healthy practice in those courts went to law school in that state, did decently, did internships with prosecutor's offices or clerkships with local judges. In criminal law, they often start in the prosecutor's office and then switch to defense after they've learned the ropes. But I've also seen defense attorneys who went straight into defense private practice out of school. The successful ones usually had a good mentor who helped them. It also helps if you have a niche.

So, there you go. Why so much emphasis on HYP Law and trying to get to BigLaw when there are real needs to be met and served at the state and county levels with smaller firms or in solo practice?

I am originally from Florida, and just looking at the list of the University of Florida Levin School of Law alumni list, there are quite a number of graduates who have gone on to illustrious careers in academia, business and government, including 4 U.S. Senators, 15 Representatives, 4 Governors, any number of states attorneys general, U.S. Ambassadors, the U.S. Trade Representative and any number of Federal judges.

I am not an attorney, but I counsel students on career choices all of the time, and the most common piece of advice I give is to constantly think outside the box, broaden your horizons within your chosen profession and be willing to take risks that will differentiate you from virtually everyone else in you field.

It just seems to me, at least on this board, that there is a lot of narrow thinking about legal careers and that the best jobs for lawyers are at the big NYC, Chicago, firms, etc., when in fact there is quite a universe of career paths out there by which one can be successful.

STFU

You REALLY don't know what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who goes on to do trial work in the state and county systems, where the rubber hits the road so to speak?

I think local connections really help in starting out in county/state courts. Most lawyers I've found with a healthy practice in those courts went to law school in that state, did decently, did internships with prosecutor's offices or clerkships with local judges. In criminal law, they often start in the prosecutor's office and then switch to defense after they've learned the ropes. But I've also seen defense attorneys who went straight into defense private practice out of school. The successful ones usually had a good mentor who helped them. It also helps if you have a niche.

So, there you go. Why so much emphasis on HYP Law and trying to get to BigLaw when there are real needs to be met and served at the state and county levels with smaller firms or in solo practice?

I am originally from Florida, and just looking at the list of the University of Florida Levin School of Law alumni list, there are quite a number of graduates who have gone on to illustrious careers in academia, business and government, including 4 U.S. Senators, 15 Representatives, 4 Governors, any number of states attorneys general, U.S. Ambassadors, the U.S. Trade Representative and any number of Federal judges.

I am not an attorney, but I counsel students on career choices all of the time, and the most common piece of advice I give is to constantly think outside the box, broaden your horizons within your chosen profession and be willing to take risks that will differentiate you from virtually everyone else in you field.

It just seems to me, at least on this board, that there is a lot of narrow thinking about legal careers and that the best jobs for lawyers are at the big NYC, Chicago, firms, etc., when in fact there is quite a universe of career paths out there by which one can be successful.

Because it's very difficult to pay back crushing law school debt working for the state, the county, or working for a solo who pays $40K and no benefits.

Well, I guess you made a losing bet. No need to feel sorry for you.

No one asked for sympathy. You can stop giving people stupid advice about going to law school, though. The market is collapsing. It will be better in 10 years, but right now law school is a bad bet for 80% of applicants.

[Anonymous]

So, if I were an attorney with years of industry experience and the ability to bring in clients, I would be of lesser value because of the name of the particular school on my law degree?

[Anonymous]

First thing we do . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, if I were an attorney with years of industry experience and the ability to bring in clients, I would be of lesser value because of the name of the particular school on my law degree?

I think this thread says otherwise.

[Anonymous]

My father became a lawyer after 20 years in the Air Force. All his AF buddies, many if whom worked for the airlines at all levels or in business brought him work all the time. I would say 20 years of that experience plus the degree helped him in his legal career. He wasn't just some English major with no relevant work experience of any kind who went to law school because s/he didn't know what to do with his/her life. Want some fries with that law degree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, I guess you made a losing bet. No need to feel sorry for you.

Is spending years of your life in graduate school really akin to gambling, PP? And as another pp said, no one was even asking for sympathy.

I wonder how "tough"you are outside of anonymous internet forums.

[Anonymous]

Not gambling, but perhaps investing in the market and not have your investment pay off. I bet a lot of folks who go to law school think - or at least used to think - law was a pretty solid way to make a living. I'll bet all those unemployed top law school grads were straight A students all through high school and told college and then law school was the best way to set themselves up for life. Instead, they ended up workin'. - if lucky - for the Man.

I think it it is this belief that motivated Peter Thiel to set up his $100K young entrepreneur prize -to get students and their parents thinking more broadly about how to succeed.

I am hoping to teach my daughter this too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who goes on to do trial work in the state and county systems, where the rubber hits the road so to speak?

I think local connections really help in starting out in county/state courts. Most lawyers I've found with a healthy practice in those courts went to law school in that state, did decently, did internships with prosecutor's offices or clerkships with local judges. In criminal law, they often start in the prosecutor's office and then switch to defense after they've learned the ropes. But I've also seen defense attorneys who went straight into defense private practice out of school. The successful ones usually had a good mentor who helped them. It also helps if you have a niche.

So, there you go. Why so much emphasis on HYP Law and trying to get to BigLaw when there are real needs to be met and served at the state and county levels with smaller firms or in solo practice?

I am originally from Florida, and just looking at the list of the University of Florida Levin School of Law alumni list, there are quite a number of graduates who have gone on to illustrious careers in academia, business and government, including 4 U.S. Senators, 15 Representatives, 4 Governors, any number of states attorneys general, U.S. Ambassadors, the U.S. Trade Representative and any number of Federal judges.

I am not an attorney, but I counsel students on career choices all of the time, and the most common piece of advice I give is to constantly think outside the box, broaden your horizons within your chosen profession and be willing to take risks that will differentiate you from virtually everyone else in you field.

It just seems to me, at least on this board, that there is a lot of narrow thinking about legal careers and that the best jobs for lawyers are at the big NYC, Chicago, firms, etc., when in fact there is quite a universe of career paths out there by which one can be successful.

Because it's very difficult to pay back crushing law school debt working for the state, the county, or working for a solo who pays $40K and no benefits.

Well, I guess you made a losing bet. No need to feel sorry for you.

I'm not a lawyer, thank god. But I'm married to one. He's one of the lucky ones.

A losing bet?? Do you know that law schools lie about their job placement? Do you know shitty, fourth tier private schools can cost almost as much as a T14? They prey on kids with shitty LSAT scores and generally dim prospects.

[Anonymous]

Caveat emptor!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Caveat emptor!

Easy to say. It's only recently that people are speaking out about the law school scam.

[Anonymous]

What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What kinds of lifestyle are you expecting? What kind of family money or other incomes do you have? I think you have to think all that.

GS 15 is impressive, but it is hardly an upper middle class lifestyle that we associate with lawyers. And it is hard to get to that level.

I am not a lawyer. I know plenty of lawyers in government. They do NOT live in Georgetown or CC, but very far out. Their kids go to daycare or public/Catholic schools, not nannies shuttling the kids back and forth from Sidwell. You need to understand that. Being a non-Big Law attorney is not that glamorous.

I never knew being a big law attorney was considered glamorous.