s/o Gifted classes in DC schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

I think (the list post) is an extremely informative post. It is consistent with my experience of a high-achieving child (likely would test into a traditional GT program/not profoundly gifted) at a JKLM. It highlights that DCPS has the capability within its structure to address most students, inclduign gifted ones, but that it has not implemented this city-wide, not even close. This is the city-wide problem of low performing schools. The problem is not necessarily a lack of a GT program but a lack of successful schools within the DCPS system.

It is the lack of a city-wide GT program. The fact that a few schools have dealt with the issue on an acceptable level for some does not help the rest of the schools at all. It certainly does not attract the parents to those schools. If DCPS wants to be a viable option, they can't have some below the radar secret handshake crap, they need to announce a real program.

[Anonymous]

The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

There has to be way to identify gifted kids who are less privileged, besides relying on straight scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a native Washingtonian and when I was in school (back in the 80s-90s), there was intense tracking in all DC public schools. However, the results of all this tracking was that those in the lowest tracks were totally ignored which grew the achievement gap. Fast forward to today and the achievement gap still persists and in fact grew under the "reforms" of Rhee/Henderson. I think the reason DC doesn't have tracking is because it didn't improve education for the majority of its students. Also, for those who keep saying that DC spends so much per pupil that rough figure is distorted because it does not take into the dollars spent by central office on special ed - ie the court ruling that allows special ed kids to be sent to expensive private schools because DCPS cannot meet their needs. If you factored that into consideration, the amount spent per pupil is in line with other jurisdictions. Finally, the socio-economic makeup of the suburbs vs dc is vastly different so it makes sense to me that the schools are also vastly different. Just my two cents.

So, dismantling tracking did not close the achievement gap in DC. Perhaps it is time to bring it back so that at least some kids in DC will get a decent education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

I think (the list post) is an extremely informative post. It is consistent with my experience of a high-achieving child (likely would test into a traditional GT program/not profoundly gifted) at a JKLM. It highlights that DCPS has the capability within its structure to address most students, inclduign gifted ones, but that it has not implemented this city-wide, not even close. This is the city-wide problem of low performing schools. The problem is not necessarily a lack of a GT program but a lack of successful schools within the DCPS system.

It is the lack of a city-wide GT program. The fact that a few schools have dealt with the issue on an acceptable level for some does not help the rest of the schools at all. It certainly does not attract the parents to those schools. If DCPS wants to be a viable option, they can't have some below the radar secret handshake crap, they need to announce a real program.

To "there you go again" poster--yes, I know! I made that point--that this isn't happening citywide but should be.

The result of a citywide GT program would be to help a very small segment of kids, while good differentiation not only addresses the needs of advanced students but also ensures that all kids are learning at the appropriate level. Pouring resources into a gifted program won't actually improve DC schools overall. What's happening at JKLM schools isn't "below the radar secret handshake crap"--it's out in the open for all to see, and it works. Why shouldn't we want that for all DCPSs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

I think (the list post) is an extremely informative post. It is consistent with my experience of a high-achieving child (likely would test into a traditional GT program/not profoundly gifted) at a JKLM. It highlights that DCPS has the capability within its structure to address most students, inclduign gifted ones, but that it has not implemented this city-wide, not even close. This is the city-wide problem of low performing schools. The problem is not necessarily a lack of a GT program but a lack of successful schools within the DCPS system.

It is the lack of a city-wide GT program. The fact that a few schools have dealt with the issue on an acceptable level for some does not help the rest of the schools at all. It certainly does not attract the parents to those schools. If DCPS wants to be a viable option, they can't have some below the radar secret handshake crap, they need to announce a real program.

To "there you go again" poster--yes, I know! I made that point--that this isn't happening citywide but should be.

The result of a citywide GT program would be to help a very small segment of kids, while good differentiation not only addresses the needs of advanced students but also ensures that all kids are learning at the appropriate level. Pouring resources into a gifted program won't actually improve DC schools overall. What's happening at JKLM schools isn't "below the radar secret handshake crap"--it's out in the open for all to see, and it works. Why shouldn't we want that for all DCPSs?

Because this only works if most of the kids are proficient if not advanced, such as in the JKLM schools. Those of us (the vast majority of the city) that are not zoned for such schools have no similar programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a native Washingtonian and when I was in school (back in the 80s-90s), there was intense tracking in all DC public schools. However, the results of all this tracking was that those in the lowest tracks were totally ignored which grew the achievement gap. Fast forward to today and the achievement gap still persists and in fact grew under the "reforms" of Rhee/Henderson. I think the reason DC doesn't have tracking is because it didn't improve education for the majority of its students. Also, for those who keep saying that DC spends so much per pupil that rough figure is distorted because it does not take into the dollars spent by central office on special ed - ie the court ruling that allows special ed kids to be sent to expensive private schools because DCPS cannot meet their needs. If you factored that into consideration, the amount spent per pupil is in line with other jurisdictions. Finally, the socio-economic makeup of the suburbs vs dc is vastly different so it makes sense to me that the schools are also vastly different. Just my two cents.

So, dismantling tracking did not close the achievement gap in DC. Perhaps it is time to bring it back so that at least some kids in DC will get a decent education.

Possibly true. The school system should be able to use research on the downsides of tracking in times passed to improve the model for all students now ( ie flexible grouping, data based identification etc )

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

Agreed. I was horrified to learn than the vast majority of middle schools in DC DO NOT EVEN OFFER the courses that would allow a student to compete for a slot in a test in high school program. Talk about stacking the deck against these kids!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

I think (the list post) is an extremely informative post. It is consistent with my experience of a high-achieving child (likely would test into a traditional GT program/not profoundly gifted) at a JKLM. It highlights that DCPS has the capability within its structure to address most students, inclduign gifted ones, but that it has not implemented this city-wide, not even close. This is the city-wide problem of low performing schools. The problem is not necessarily a lack of a GT program but a lack of successful schools within the DCPS system.

It is the lack of a city-wide GT program. The fact that a few schools have dealt with the issue on an acceptable level for some does not help the rest of the schools at all. It certainly does not attract the parents to those schools. If DCPS wants to be a viable option, they can't have some below the radar secret handshake crap, they need to announce a real program.

To "there you go again" poster--yes, I know! I made that point--that this isn't happening citywide but should be.

The result of a citywide GT program would be to help a very small segment of kids, while good differentiation not only addresses the needs of advanced students but also ensures that all kids are learning at the appropriate level. Pouring resources into a gifted program won't actually improve DC schools overall. What's happening at JKLM schools isn't "below the radar secret handshake crap"--it's out in the open for all to see, and it works. Why shouldn't we want that for all DCPSs?

Because this only works if most of the kids are proficient if not advanced, such as in the JKLM schools. Those of us (the vast majority of the city) that are not zoned for such schools have no similar programs.

So your solution is to create a magnet program that can pull out identified G/T kids and put them in a separate school that also does not serve the vast majority of the kids in the city? I know everyone's child is gifted and all but I suspect there would be a backlash from the families whose children have the capability to succeed but are not given adequate educational choices because their child did not test G/T.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure I see your point.

Why worry about backlash over G&T when CURRENTLY no kids in DCPS are being given adequate educational choices regardless of whether or not they are G&T?

At least a G&T program would start to address the needs - and would allow DCPS to be able to start focusing on the other kids whose educational needs aren't being met either.

The way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. But instead all we have is endless paralysis and hand-wringing, and as a result nothing gets done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

Agreed. I was horrified to learn than the vast majority of middle schools in DC DO NOT EVEN OFFER the courses that would allow a student to compete for a slot in a test in high school program. Talk about stacking the deck against these kids!

Indeed. Know this is the case in Ward 5. That's why middle class parents in the ward generally don't send our kids to schools in the ward. It's OOB, charter, or private for us. With a G/T program, DCPS would have a chance of keeping more of us in its system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure I see your point.

Why worry about backlash over G&T when CURRENTLY no kids in DCPS are being given adequate educational choices regardless of whether or not they are G&T?

At least a G&T program would start to address the needs - and would allow DCPS to be able to start focusing on the other kids whose educational needs aren't being met either.

The way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. But instead all we have is endless paralysis and hand-wringing, and as a result nothing gets done.

First, there are kids in DCPS that are being given adequate educational choices. Unfortunately, it is not widespread and they are now virtually impossible to get into by OOB lottery.

You are solving a problem that you see as a way to keep your children in the system (assuming of course your children qualify) and it will likely be viewed politically as giving more to the haves while not addressing the needs of the kids that DC is failing miserably that do not have choices (by choices I mean parents that can and will vote with their feet and ensure their kids are educated). From the way you write, it is clear that you are educated and likely were not raised in DCPS so you chose to move here and you probably had opportunities to think about your child's educational outcomes along the way and decided you could make a go of it in some manner. The children most under served by DC do not have a choice. It would be nice/good/ideal for your children to be well served by DCPS. That said, your children will be fine because you will make choices to ensure this. I will do the same if it stops working for us. We might not like the choices, but there are plenty of good public and private schools in the area, we just may have to move or make financial choices we wish we did not have to make.

I support a GT program (and I think my children would qualify). But, I do not think it will happen because of the political landscape until you make more schools effective for the kids in the most need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cognitive dissonance involved in having test-in high schools in DCPS but no test-in options at lower grades is amazing. So, it's magically okay at 9th grade to offer programs of particular interest to the highest-achieving students but dangerous and wrong-headed at 8th? Or 6th? Or 2nd? One could argue that it's actually much more inclusive to do so at the younger elementary grades when the effects of the achievement gap are less pronounced and gifted kids of all background could be ID's and supported early on. Wake up, DCPS. If you want to continue hemorrhaging those kids to Charters, then great, by all means, proceed. Want to capture those families and keep them in neighborhood schools? Start serving them in a rich, meaningful way.

Good questions PP. The truth is that the "test-in" academic high schools, SWW and Banneker (which doesn't use a test), would be much improved by city-wide GT elementary and test-in middle school programs. Wilson's academies are stronger. Much of what happens in HS in this city is too little too late where elite colleges are concerned. Most of the high-SES parents running to charters for elementary and middle school are unlikely to be happy with high school offerings, at least when comparing notes with friends and colleagues in the burbs.

Somebody mentioned that Deal got sued over an honors program. I can't find any information on-line. What was the story with that? When did it happen, who sued, on what grounds, what was the outcome (case settled after honors classes removed or what?).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Good questions PP. The truth is that the "test-in" academic high schools, SWW and Banneker (which doesn't use a test), would be much improved by city-wide GT elementary and test-in middle school programs. Wilson's academies are stronger. Much of what happens in HS in this city is too little too late where elite colleges are concerned. Most of the high-SES parents running to charters for elementary and middle school are unlikely to be happy with high school offerings, at least when comparing notes with friends and colleagues in the burbs.

Somebody mentioned that Deal got sued over an honors program. I can't find any information on-line. What was the story with that? When did it happen, who sued, on what grounds, what was the outcome (case settled after honors classes removed or what?).

What is the application process for SWW and Bannekar like if they don't use a test?