s/o Gifted classes in DC schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most threads, no matter the topic, someone always circles back to the fact that DC does not have test-in gifted/advanced classes especially at the elementary level. I just read on a middle school thread that Deal is no longer offer "honors" courses etc. I get that DCPS is very politically correct and wants to keep ALL kids together regardless of ability but don't they realize that they would keep a heck of a lot more high SES families in the school system if they offered a legit program like most surrounding counties. Its just a a fact that the smarter kids will be bored in a class that teaches to the most struggling studends. ANd in DC that is signficant. So my question is what would it take for DCPS to actually offer gifted classes? And why aren't more parents organizing and demanding this? I suspect its because they worry about appearing racists/classist or elitist. But it may be the thing that finally saves DCPS from losing another 5k students. I keep thinking a test-in model at an underperforming school would do wonders to bring in more parents, money and volunteers which could benefit the entire school.
Am I missing something? Why aren't parents demanding this? (And Im not talking about DCPS and their bs "enrichment programs" a couple of hours a week either). Im sure I will get flamed for this but I think a ton of parents are thinking the same thing but just afraid to bring it up at a PTA meeting.

If DCPS opened a test-in G/T elementary school and your child was selected, how far would you travel? What if the school was opened in the old Savoy elementary school located in Ward 8, but directly across from a subway station, would you enroll your child? Or, would you require the new test-in G/T school to be placed in Wards 1-4, and maybe 6?

It makes more sense for such a school to be centrally located in the city. It also makes more sense for their eventually to be more than such school.

What is a central location for you? A central location for me would be a school directly across from a metro subway line. My kid could walk from his house to the subway and get off at another stop within walking distance to his school. But that's okay, you answered the first question like I assumed you would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think we need a special program for G/T kids. I do think we need a richer, more challenging curriculum that offers more substance than simply testing the hell out of reading and math.

Agree, but many kids can't even manage the watered-down curriculum that DCPS currently offers. Which is why tracking and remediation is needed. And let's ditch the kum-ba-ya ideas about how that could hurt a child's self esteem, because the rest of the kids already know who's behind and struggling even without tracking, and avoiding the problem doesn't solve anything.

[Anonymous]

Ancient history but DCPS must have had a gifted program at one point, at Bancroft of all places --check out this 2006 obituary

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/10/AR2006031002012.html

Vivian Lee HairstonElementary School Principal

Vivian Lee Hairston, 67, principal of Wheatley Elementary School in Washington and a teacher, administrator and principal in District public schools for more than 20 years, died of cancer March 4 at Prince George's Hospital Center. She lived in Lanham.

Ms. Hairston had been principal at Wheatley for the past two years after returning from retirement. She was principal at J.F. Cook Elementary School from 1992 to 2000 and principal of Slater-Langston Elementary before it was closed.

She was born in Danville, Va., and moved to the District as a child. She graduated from Eastern High School and the old D.C. Teachers College. She received a master's degree from Howard University in 1986.

In 1984, Ms. Hairston worked as school resource coordinator for the gifted and talented at Bancroft Elementary. She also had taught at Trinity University.

From 2000 to 2004, she served as a director of the Boys and Girls Club of Greater Washington.

She was a member of Delta Sigma Theta sorority.

Her marriage to Joe Jeter ended in divorce.

Survivors include a son, Anthony Jeter of Los Angeles; a brother, James Hyatt of Forestville; and a grandson.

[Anonymous]

Rhee and Henderson have both answered this question before. There is only so many dollars to go around and in a system like DCPS, the money has to go to those struggling the most. That's just the way it is folks.

[Anonymous]

This is the reason why DCPS will continue to fail. They need a school for troubled youth and a school (or at least classes) for more advanced students. To ignore that children have different needs is to fail every single one of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because no one calls it that.
I think OP really doesn't know much about gifted programs and is indeed just looking to pick a fight. The simple fact that he/she is talking about "gifted classes" is testimony to that. The presumption behind "gifted" and "talented" programs is that some kids (I think estimates range from 3-5%) ARE gifted. They don't need to occasional class here and there but an entirely separate program.
But I think what OP is asking is why there (presumably) aren't enough advanced classes. That there aren't is just plain wrong; though possibly there aren't enough. Middle schools and more so high schools in DC (and in truth many elementary schools) do offer advanced options in various formats. For political reasons, no one calls that "gifted and talented" but if you took the time to compare, say, Fairfax' definition of G&T (http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/column/columnlevelIV.shtml) to what DC does on the ground, there isn't much difference, just differently framed and different lingo.
Now, maybe the problem is that, in search of "advanced classes", you'll need to read up a little and know what you're looking for. You won't find what you're looking for neatly labelled in DC.

I feel like you and I live in parallel universes. I have visited and studied five DCPS middle schools, and aside from Deal, I just don't see the kind of programs that are in abundance in Montgomery, Arlington and Fairfax. Please describe the course sequence for a very bright child at Hardy/Stuart Hobson/Jefferson/Eliot Hine.

My point exactly, not neatly labeled, no clear course sequence. But all of these offer multiple ways in which an advanced learner can go above and beyond the basic standards. By "multiple", I mean that your advance learner may take tracked math classes, non-tracked reading but advanced book clubs, and some extended advanced research or science project.
If you take the time to read through the Fairfax plan, then you find great deal of labeling, but it and substantively boils down to the same thing.

By "you need to know what you're looking for", I mean that you really have to unpack how some of the options you enumerate offer advanced learning opportunities. They do so quite differently. Hardy & Stuart-Hobson have a similar take and Eliot-Hine and Jefferson have another one. The first two are more directly premised on tracking, the latter two on ability-grouping (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brown-center-chalkboard/posts/2013/04/03-ability-grouping-tracking-loveless). And if you are dead-set on your child fully maximizing on advanced offerings, pick a school where everybody else isn't already an advanced learner.

Maybe this isn't what you mean by G&T programs (as opposed to advanced courses/opportunities). But if it isn't, then Fairfax doesn't have one either, just calls it that. (I don't know about MoCo.)

Really? So Wilson is just as good as TJ? Um, nope. Not even close. It sounds as if you are delusional. You must work at DCPS downtown? Have you looked at average SAT scores for our "elite" programs like Banneker? Education in DC is a joke and it will continue to be as long as persons like yourself continue to blow sunshine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that parents want to rate and rank their children into a public school system. You can't do that at any private school. When I hear parents say they want gifted and talented programs, it is all well and good. But there's not enough of gifted and talented students in one grade level to make a school viable.

To make any school viable you would need about 500 kids tested per entry grade level, just to weed out 250. That ain't happening in this city, I don't care how many strollers you see at the park.

It ain't happening. No way, no how.

Sorry, but it doesn't take anywhere near 250 per grade level to justify the need for an option. 250 is over 12 classes each grade. Looking at official DCPS statistics, there are for example 84 DCPS schools currently serving 1st grade, and 3741 1st graders were enrolled in DCPS in 2012, which averages out to 44 1st graders per DCPS school, or an equivalent of 2 classes per DCPS school, nowhere near 12 to be able to justify it. And in fact, going by the same numbers that DCPS uses to justify keeping its neighborhood schools open, not just one G&T school could be justified, but SEVERAL could.

Also, I suspect that in fact out of 75,000 students, a lot more than 500 are already being tested each year for various reasons, such as for not paying attention in class or acting out, mainly because they are bored, unchallenged, and lacking a more productive outlet. I don't at all think it wouldn't take much to come up with enough G&T students to justify putting a robust option in place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rhee and Henderson have both answered this question before. There is only so many dollars to go around and in a system like DCPS, the money has to go to those struggling the most. That's just the way it is folks.

Nonsense. There are plenty of dollars to go around, DCPS spends more per student than any district in the nation (and that includes districts that DO have robust G&T programs in place). The real issue is waste, abuse and mismanagement.

[Anonymous]

i thought hardy added Gifted and Talented last year, as one of two schools to receive such program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In most threads, no matter the topic, someone always circles back to the fact that DC does not have test-in gifted/advanced classes especially at the elementary level. I just read on a middle school thread that Deal is no longer offer "honors" courses etc. I get that DCPS is very politically correct and wants to keep ALL kids together regardless of ability but don't they realize that they would keep a heck of a lot more high SES families in the school system if they offered a legit program like most surrounding counties. Its just a a fact that the smarter kids will be bored in a class that teaches to the most struggling studends. ANd in DC that is signficant. So my question is what would it take for DCPS to actually offer gifted classes? And why aren't more parents organizing and demanding this? I suspect its because they worry about appearing racists/classist or elitist. But it may be the thing that finally saves DCPS from losing another 5k students. I keep thinking a test-in model at an underperforming school would do wonders to bring in more parents, money and volunteers which could benefit the entire school.
Am I missing something? Why aren't parents demanding this? (And Im not talking about DCPS and their bs "enrichment programs" a couple of hours a week either). Im sure I will get flamed for this but I think a ton of parents are thinking the same thing but just afraid to bring it up at a PTA meeting.

If DCPS opened a test-in G/T elementary school and your child was selected, how far would you travel? What if the school was opened in the old Savoy elementary school located in Ward 8, but directly across from a subway station, would you enroll your child? Or, would you require the new test-in G/T school to be placed in Wards 1-4, and maybe 6?

It makes more sense for such a school to be centrally located in the city. It also makes more sense for their eventually to be more than such school.

The histroic Franklin School at 13th and K would be great for MS or HS (no space for a playground for elementary).

[Anonymous]

You fail to mention anything about DC Charter Schools. Are charter schools included in your research?

[Anonymous]

OP here. To the poster who thinks im trying to pick a fight, trust me Im not. I am truly curious why this idea has not gained more steam with DCPS management. there are so many driven and well organized parents in DCPS who put so much effort into starting Charters, enrichment programs or saving their local under performing school that it surprises me that a group hasn't formed to demand test-in advanced classes, for younger kids. I grew up in another state and was in a test-in gifted and talented program starting in third grade. It was great and I am glad I had the opportunity and challenges that came with it. By high school, everyone was more leveled at in some courses more than others. I know a few students in DCPS who have been allowed to skip a grade but that to me is not a good long term solution for kids. I think the schools in ward 1 are surrounded by some of the most educated parents in the City and its quickly gentrifying but so many of the DCPS schools do not reflect this at all. My kid is still a couple of years from DCPS so I am really trying to understand this issue. It just doesnt make much sense to me to have a group of third graders in one class where half are reading, barely, at kindergarten level and the rest are reading at a fifth grade level. Unless the expectation is that the more advanced kids are supposed to tutor the others. Which is really screwed up too.

[Anonymous]

This is exactly why I'm moving. What an exhausting situation. Just give us goddamn programs! No, whine, whine, whine!!!...

[Anonymous]

I am a native Washingtonian and when I was in school (back in the 80s-90s), there was intense tracking in all DC public schools. However, the results of all this tracking was that those in the lowest tracks were totally ignored which grew the achievement gap. Fast forward to today and the achievement gap still persists and in fact grew under the "reforms" of Rhee/Henderson. I think the reason DC doesn't have tracking is because it didn't improve education for the majority of its students. Also, for those who keep saying that DC spends so much per pupil that rough figure is distorted because it does not take into the dollars spent by central office on special ed - ie the court ruling that allows special ed kids to be sent to expensive private schools because DCPS cannot meet their needs. If you factored that into consideration, the amount spent per pupil is in line with other jurisdictions. Finally, the socio-economic makeup of the suburbs vs dc is vastly different so it makes sense to me that the schools are also vastly different. Just my two cents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. To the poster who thinks im trying to pick a fight, trust me Im not. I am truly curious why this idea has not gained more steam with DCPS management. there are so many driven and well organized parents in DCPS who put so much effort into starting Charters, enrichment programs or saving their local under performing school that it surprises me that a group hasn't formed to demand test-in advanced classes, for younger kids. I grew up in another state and was in a test-in gifted and talented program starting in third grade. It was great and I am glad I had the opportunity and challenges that came with it. By high school, everyone was more leveled at in some courses more than others. I know a few students in DCPS who have been allowed to skip a grade but that to me is not a good long term solution for kids. I think the schools in ward 1 are surrounded by some of the most educated parents in the City and its quickly gentrifying but so many of the DCPS schools do not reflect this at all. My kid is still a couple of years from DCPS so I am really trying to understand this issue. It just doesnt make much sense to me to have a group of third graders in one class where half are reading, barely, at kindergarten level and the rest are reading at a fifth grade level. Unless the expectation is that the more advanced kids are supposed to tutor the others. Which is really screwed up too.

There we go, part of the problem with the debate is of course that those clamoring for G&T programs do so because they think that all of the so many "driven parents" (including them of course) have gifted children. Doesn't surprise me that OP doesn't even have school age children yet. How does he/she know his/hers are gifted?! If these are the parents pestering DCPS for G&T programs, then let's not be surprised that DCPS rolls its eyes saying "here we go again" because all it ends up being is "I want my child to be enrolled with 'like' children". God forbid that these G&T children be poor and/or black.

So, let me rephrase:
Question: "Why don't we have a G&T program?"
Answer: "Because the wrong people are asking for it for the wrong reasons."

Meanwhile, I, who may well have a truly talented child in DCPS, I can but distance myself from the "stroller brigade" (not my word choice) whose requests and claims are too often pitifully uninformed.

Fortunately, we've found DCPS well capable of addressing our child's needs. And, no, I won't share in what supposedly (I quote) "parallel universe" with its "bs enrichment" we've made it happen. Go do your own homework.