s/o Gifted classes in DC schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because no one calls it that.
I think OP really doesn't know much about gifted programs and is indeed just looking to pick a fight. The simple fact that he/she is talking about "gifted classes" is testimony to that. The presumption behind "gifted" and "talented" programs is that some kids (I think estimates range from 3-5%) ARE gifted. They don't need to occasional class here and there but an entirely separate program.
But I think what OP is asking is why there (presumably) aren't enough advanced classes. That there aren't is just plain wrong; though possibly there aren't enough. Middle schools and more so high schools in DC (and in truth many elementary schools) do offer advanced options in various formats. For political reasons, no one calls that "gifted and talented" but if you took the time to compare, say, Fairfax' definition of G&T (http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/column/columnlevelIV.shtml) to what DC does on the ground, there isn't much difference, just differently framed and different lingo.
Now, maybe the problem is that, in search of "advanced classes", you'll need to read up a little and know what you're looking for. You won't find what you're looking for neatly labelled in DC.

I feel like you and I live in parallel universes. I have visited and studied five DCPS middle schools, and aside from Deal, I just don't see the kind of programs that are in abundance in Montgomery, Arlington and Fairfax. Please describe the course sequence for a very bright child at Hardy/Stuart Hobson/Jefferson/Eliot Hine.

My point exactly, not neatly labeled, no clear course sequence. But all of these offer multiple ways in which an advanced learner can go above and beyond the basic standards. By "multiple", I mean that your advance learner may take tracked math classes, non-tracked reading but advanced book clubs, and some extended advanced research or science project.
If you take the time to read through the Fairfax plan, then you find great deal of labeling, but it and substantively boils down to the same thing.

By "you need to know what you're looking for", I mean that you really have to unpack how some of the options you enumerate offer advanced learning opportunities. They do so quite differently. Hardy & Stuart-Hobson have a similar take and Eliot-Hine and Jefferson have another one. The first two are more directly premised on tracking, the latter two on ability-grouping (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brown-center-chalkboard/posts/2013/04/03-ability-grouping-tracking-loveless). And if you are dead-set on your child fully maximizing on advanced offerings, pick a school where everybody else isn't already an advanced learner.

Maybe this isn't what you mean by G&T programs (as opposed to advanced courses/opportunities). But if it isn't, then Fairfax doesn't have one either, just calls it that. (I don't know about MoCo.)

You have really unclear on the concept. Putting and advanced learner in a middle school without many advanced learners and encouraging them to join a book club and do some extended projects is not I'm the best interest of the student. They need sparky classmates to bounce ideas off if and generate discussion, they need challenging writing assignments and content in every class every day and they need teachers who know how to challenge, motivate and take these bright kids to the next level of academic performance and critical thinking. But good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many of us with advanced learners in DCPS who are making it work. My children are at Brent, and we are hoping to get into Latin for middle school and high school. My oldest is in 3rd now. He does have a few friends leaving Brent, and I think the parents concerns are around challenge. Fortunately, my bright child is being challenged and loves going to school. His reading level is the equivalent of the end of 4th grade (so one grade ahead), and in his racially diverse class, he is in the middle ability reading group. His teacher told me his reading level, but the info on which reading group is from him (so possibly inaccurate). We have been happy with the ability grouping, and haven't felt the need for more than we've had.

No offense, but the way you describe your child doesn't really sound like an "advanced learner." On the other hand, if you are happy with your child's education, that is a great thing!

I would think that a child being a year ahead in reading would make a child advanced, but I guess not by DCUM standards. Perhaps the poster did not feel the need to exagerate or pile on the decriptions of her child's many accomplishments? Also, her child is older than 3 unlike many of these parents of gifted children. It seems a little unlikely to me that there are seriosuly scores of parents out there with children who are two or three years ahead in math and reading. I have met kids like this - maybe three or four in my sons school and at least two of those were on the spectrum. It's good to hear that Deal meets these kids needs. I do know one child at Basis like this who is doing well and is happy.

[Anonymous]

There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

[Anonymous]

If you actually have children in DCPS and feel that there isn't anything in place for advanced learners you should call your child's school to speak to the principal and find out the whole story and whether this is actually the case or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you actually have children in DCPS and feel that there isn't anything in place for advanced learners you should call your child's school to speak to the principal and find out the whole story and whether this is actually the case or not.

What if we have children that qualify for DCPS schools, but we don't believe that there is anything in place and nobody can answer during the open houses and there is no indication that there is any formal program in place? My child is reading and doing math three grade levels ahead. I have absolutely no confidence that a system that can not articulate what it does for such children can actually support them. Leaving it up to a classroom teacher that also has 80% below proficient children is not an acceptable answer.

I went to many different schools growing up (we moved a lot), and I have never heard of a system that did not at least have break out honors classes. The better school districts also had either pull-out, one day a week in school programs or pull-out, one day a week programs where I was sent to a gifted school for that day. These programs were imperitive to keeping my interest in academics. Otherwise, I too likely would have been one of the statistics. Gifted children that are left without motivation or academic challenges fail.

[Anonymous]

I worry about the lack of gifted programs, too (I have two in preschool -K). We're at an 80% FARMS DCPS that has no gifted program (not sure there's even a pullout). But after reading this thread I now have a plan! I'll do the Hopkins CIY test when they're in second grade. They'll be very accustomed to standardized tests at that point so lack of testing experience shouldn't hinder them. If they test gifted, we'll talk to the principal and teachers and see what they can do. If it's not enough we'll do outside school enrichment (eg Hopkins CIY in summer). If that's not enough we'll look at charters or moving.

I was in an "academically talented" program (the term back in the 70s) for 5th and 6th and got a lot out of it, then went back to regular school. Didn't get much special attention in jr high but did AP classes in high school and went to an Ivy League. So it wasn't the end of the world to have no gifted programs throughout. However, I did feel less prepared than many of my college classmates. I'm not that bothered by the lack of gifted programs in DCPS elementary --right now going to our local school and being part of that community matters most. But after 5th, if they test gifted, I will want more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you actually have children in DCPS and feel that there isn't anything in place for advanced learners you should call your child's school to speak to the principal and find out the whole story and whether this is actually the case or not.

What if we have children that qualify for DCPS schools, but we don't believe that there is anything in place and nobody can answer during the open houses and there is no indication that there is any formal program in place? My child is reading and doing math three grade levels ahead. I have absolutely no confidence that a system that can not articulate what it does for such children can actually support them. Leaving it up to a classroom teacher that also has 80% below proficient children is not an acceptable answer.

I went to many different schools growing up (we moved a lot), and I have never heard of a system that did not at least have break out honors classes. The better school districts also had either pull-out, one day a week in school programs or pull-out, one day a week programs where I was sent to a gifted school for that day. These programs were imperitive to keeping my interest in academics. Otherwise, I too likely would have been one of the statistics. Gifted children that are left without motivation or academic challenges fail.

Schools are not going to go into detail about what they would do for a gifted child at an open house. The question comes up at almost every time--"My perfect child is reading 5 grade levels ahead. How will you make sure that Billy isn't short changed while you're dealing with all those poor children who aren't even on grade level yet?" I've been to many open houses and have yet to hear an administration answer this question or its many variations to the satisfaction of the questioner. I suspect because first, the discussion of gifted would highjack the open house and second, most kids aren't quite as gifted as their parents think they are. The "gifted" conversation is not well suited for an open house.

Again, many parents in DC are convinced their kid is gifted. I was one of these parents (mainly because my kid tested into a G&T program in another state in 1st grade). Turns out, my kid is just very bright-- and given their tenaciousness will probably do well in life--but, not "gifted" in the clinical definition of the term. Also, if your kid hasn't gotten beyond the 3rd grade yet, then you may want to pause the "my child is gifted" song. After 3rd and the middle school years is when you really start to see which kids are truly advanced.

Now, if your child has been tested by a professional and is indeed performing three grade levels ahead, then schedule a meeting and go over the documents with the principal to discuss how the school would serve your "truly gifted" child. If after that meeting you determine the school cannot meet your child's needs, then consider other options.

[Anonymous]

Oh right, consider other options, like shopping for 800K+ 3-bedroom homes in Upper NW, or around Brent (where 3rd-5th graders who are advanced at math will be able to loop up a grade in the fall).

Don't forget to hand your PTA at least $800 annually - you don't want to come off as a free rider when making use of the parent-hired math teacher.

A relatively cheap option would be a 700K house IB for the Cluster - as a PP mentioned, Watkins has started pulling out kids. Failing that, on a tight budget, lottery into an immersion charter where around 3 kids speak the target language at home. Be sure to take a moment to celebrate diversity once you get there (hint: look around, note that at least half the kids are black and cheer, loudly, mandatory).

Later, the best you can do is Deal, BASIS or Latin (but you know this already). They offer advanced math, but middling options for almost every other subject. Pretend not to mind that kids can't read/count/test proficient are dispatched to the very same English, foreign language, science and social studies classes as those who score advanced on the DC-CAS (and attend Johns Hopkins gifted camps).

Why the allergy to excellence despite a decade of galloping gentrification? Those who care, with the kids with the goods, still tend to move, or go private. Nobody much left to lobby by the teenage years.

[Anonymous]

15:13--Perhaps you should ask your child's teacher or the principal of the school what they actually have in place for a child who is academically advanced. Is there a specific program that they have in place in certain subjects for such a child? Just because such a program may rely on in-class differentiation doesn't mean it's crap. It's one thing when the teacher is expected to reinvent the wheel it's quite another when he/she is given a whole fully-fleshed out program to work with precocious students. But again, you'd have to actually get some real facts from the school. And if they can't answer you for whatever reason then you should ask them who in the system you can contact regarding such qeustions. I bet if you did that you'd get better solutions or answers then just complaining on here. If that's your actual goal. (To get a solution.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15:13--Perhaps you should ask your child's teacher or the principal of the school what they actually have in place for a child who is academically advanced. Is there a specific program that they have in place in certain subjects for such a child? Just because such a program may rely on in-class differentiation doesn't mean it's crap. It's one thing when the teacher is expected to reinvent the wheel it's quite another when he/she is given a whole fully-fleshed out program to work with precocious students. But again, you'd have to actually get some real facts from the school. And if they can't answer you for whatever reason then you should ask them who in the system you can contact regarding such qeustions. I bet if you did that you'd get better solutions or answers then just complaining on here. If that's your actual goal. (To get a solution.)

I beg to differ. If a program has 80% below proficient students in the same class as academically advanced students it is crap. Until DCPS realizes this, it will continue to be crap in all of the high poverty schools, making it impossible for a child from those areas to succeed.

[Anonymous]

The solution is to fix the system and have advanced and remedial classes like every successful head out of their ass school system.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, Watkins is doing daily ability grouping for both reading and math this year, using the PIA results to break the classes into 5 groups and reshuffling after each PIA. Honestly, I've heard nothing but praise this year from parents with kids at every level. It's not true G&T but seems to be doing a good job of giving all the kids what they need -- support/rigor appropriate to their abilities. My kid is in the top section for both groups and has been very happy with it, feels challenged, interested. No complaints here.

Perfect, no, but we're talking about a large Title I public elementary school here where the vast majority of the kids are not working above grade level. My kid has continued to progress, likes going to school, and gets a lot of enrichment outside of school time. Not perfect, but it's working for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hsa not been a lot of actually verified information being bantered around on here. DCPS has purposely not chosen to have a test-in gifted and talented pull out program as many of its surrounding jurisdictions to. It is not accidental. There is a major disparity among the races regarding who is selected by the criteria used by most jurisdictions so that white and Asians are by far overrepresented compared to the average. Nonetheless, DCPS does believe strongly in providing real differentiation in the form of resources and opportunities for advanced learners in elementary, middle, and high school. At some levels this looks like curricular units that are above grade level and designed to be used in small group settings. In other grades it looks like special pull-out programs, and in others we're talking about Advanced Placement which while it is open to all, is especially good for precocious learners.

Yes, this. The point here is that it is possible for advanced kids (kids who in our day would have tested into gifted and talented programs but weren't profoundly gifted in the calculus-at-age-8 sense of the word) to do very well in DCPS without a designated "gifted" program. A combination of differentiation, pull-out, and AP (in the HS years)--done well--will challenge these kids. The issue is that it isn't done well across the system, in part because many schools have many, many kids who aren't operating at grade level. That's a major problem.

But if your kid is at a JKLM school and you're sweating this, one (or more) of the following things is true:

1. Your kid is profoundly gifted and in need of a type of attention and acceleration that he/she won't get in pretty much any public school, with the possible exception of a TJ-type magnet.
2. Your kid isn't actually at the school yet and you're pre-worrying about a problem that likely won't materialize.
3. Your kid is smart but not disciplined or self-directed and thus needs the hand-holding you can pay for at private school or the immersive, aggressive rigor of a BASIS to remain focused and successful. (I think this one is more common than many think/admit.)
4. You have lots of friends in MoCo and Ffx whose kids have been placed in "gifted" programs and fear that your child isn't getting a similar quality education if he/she hasn't been labeled.

There you go again. We are not all able to go to JKLM schools. What do we do?

I think (the list post) is an extremely informative post. It is consistent with my experience of a high-achieving child (likely would test into a traditional GT program/not profoundly gifted) at a JKLM. It highlights that DCPS has the capability within its structure to address most students, inclduign gifted ones, but that it has not implemented this city-wide, not even close. This is the city-wide problem of low performing schools. The problem is not necessarily a lack of a GT program but a lack of successful schools within the DCPS system.