pledge of allegiance in schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child has to say it; they do have to stand, though.

I am very conservative and yet I think it's a little creepy to pledge allegiance to a flag. I love our flag and I love seeing it fly, but there's something about chanting the pledge that I do find a bit odd. It is tradition, though, so I don't get too worked up about it.

The flag is obviously symbolic. You are not pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, but rather to what the piece of cloth symbolically represents: a nation that stands for "liberty and justice for all". I am an atheist and have no problem with the "under God" line. It is a tradition. You are not required to worship or anything. It is part of our culture and tradition as Americans citizens to learn and recite the pledge as kids.

If the flag was only a symbolic representation of our nation, the pledge would not have included "and to the republic for which it stands". When reciting the pledge, you are pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth and a nation. Not only do I not believe in pledging allgience to a flag, I don't believe our nation is "under God". How could I be true to my beliefs if I recited the pledge?

[Anonymous]

I grew up in VA schools and said it every day of my school life. So did all of my friends. Plenty of athiests now. Your kids will be fine.

I am religious and do believe in God. For me, it was the tiniest part of my day. In fact if it was removed, it wouldn't mean much. Even in HS, I prayed to God many more times than that one pledge each day, so it wouldn't change my worship.

I think it's sad to remove it because of the tradition. Also, for those who do believe in God, it kinda feels like literally turning your back on him. Like we're removing JUST the God part of the pledge. At least can we make any other changes while we're at it? Make it easier to understand to the common person now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.

I'm the OP. Are you addressing me? I am actually not an atheist. Nevertheless, I do not like the idea of the pledge saying "under god," nor do I like that children are expected to recite it every day at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.

This is ridiculous. All parents are supposed to teach their kids their family values.

Your "values," or lack thereof, make me sick - where do they come from if not from God and the 10 commandments? Where? What is the basis of your values? The satanic bible? MSNBC? Whatever you feel like at the moment? Obviously, one of your values is to shield your children from God.

CHEW ON THIS - Jesus said in the Bible that to turn people away from him and God is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN - the ONLY ONE - in other words, as a parent or human being, to turn your child away from God is the WORST SIN imaginable.

Do you think God would be proud to see you coming on here and insulting people, calling people terrible parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Hmmm. My feeling was the main goal of this thread was to stir the pot, because the last thread about religion had just sunk off the first page. I'm always surprised at how some (not all) atheists are obsessed about their own atheism, and need to shove it in everyone else's faces, for example by keeping threads about their atheism going on DCUM. Anyway, the atheist kooks and religious kooks have come out to play. It certainly looks like OP succeeded....

WOw, OP here again -- again, I personally am NOT an atheist; neither is my husband. But I still don't like to see a religious reference in the pledge, and I don't like that it is a part of my kid's daily routine at school.

I was not trying to stir the pot. I had just had the orientation meeting at my kid's preschool, learned with surprise that they'd be saying the pledge every day, wondered if that was standard in schools, and came here to ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hmmm. My feeling was the main goal of this thread was to stir the pot, because the last thread about religion had just sunk off the first page. I'm always surprised at how some (not all) atheists are obsessed about their own atheism, and need to shove it in everyone else's faces, for example by keeping threads about their atheism going on DCUM. Anyway, the atheist kooks and religious kooks have come out to play. It certainly looks like OP succeeded....

WOw, OP here again -- again, I personally am NOT an atheist; neither is my husband. But I still don't like to see a religious reference in the pledge, and I don't like that it is a part of my kid's daily routine at school.

I was not trying to stir the pot. I had just had the orientation meeting at my kid's preschool, learned with surprise that they'd be saying the pledge every day, wondered if that was standard in schools, and came here to ask.

I think people are confused and bewildered by your rationality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think it's sad to remove it because of the tradition. Also, for those who do believe in God, it kinda feels like literally turning your back on him. Like we're removing JUST the God part of the pledge. At least can we make any other changes while we're at it? Make it easier to understand to the common person now?

Please read the history of "under God" in the pledge.

And, to the vomiting/disgusted PP: please read your holy book. You're making yourself and the followers of your religion look bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's sad to remove it because of the tradition. Also, for those who do believe in God, it kinda feels like literally turning your back on him. Like we're removing JUST the God part of the pledge. At least can we make any other changes while we're at it? Make it easier to understand to the common person now?

Just because it's YOUR tradition and you believe in God doesn't mean that it should be imposed on anyone else. Why must God be part of it?

[Anonymous]

Why must it not

[Anonymous]

Because that wasn't the original intent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I made a big stink about this in elementary school, many, many years ago. You have lots of options here, from Under Dog to silence to mumbling, to discussing it with the child and letting her decide, or ignoring it altogether. And it's an opportunity to explore more broadly with her when we conform, and when we make other choices. You can underscore the patriotic message that we have the RIGHT to abstain - among our more significant 1st Amendment freedoms.

It may feel small, but it isn't: it's how you teach your children who you are, how you think, what you va[b]lue.

It's very interesting to read your last comments, since many DCUM posters indicate that they want their children to make their decisions about religion on their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.

So, forcing my child to recite an oath that references a God, when they're too young to make sense of it preserves their "ability to have options and choose for himself?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
"Pumpkins, remember what Mummy told you: some of your friends and teachers, OK probably 90% of the people at your school, may say something about God, and may think you should be respectful and thankful that you live in this country. But my precious shouldn't have to go along with that because Mummy knows more about all of this than they do! So you show them, Snowflake. If you hear your friends chanting something to the flag, you refuse to say the word "God!" Got that???!!! I know you don't understand all of this, but you do this for Mummy, OK?"

How about this:

"Mommy, I learned something new in school, wanna hear?"

"Of course, love"

"I pwedge awegiance . . . one nation, under God, . . . "

"Wow! You must have worked hard to learn that, it's got a LOT of words! I learned it at school, although not until I was bigger than you. I learned it in Kindergarten. Do you want to hear me say it?"

"Sure!"

"I pledge . . . one nation (pause) with liberty and justice for all."

"You didn't say "under God""

"No, I didn't, I left those words out."

"Why Mommy?"

"Well, remember how we talked about how different people believe different things? I don't believe that there is a God. I think he's a nice story, but I don't think we're "under God", so I choose not to say those words. Some people choose to say them, and some people don't. You can choose whichever you want."

"I like to say them."

"Saying them is a good choice too. If you ever decide not to say them, make sure you pause like I did so that the people who do say them can catch up. Then you can finish with your friends."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.

This is ridiculous. All parents are supposed to teach their kids their family values.

Your "values," or lack thereof, make me sick - where do they come from if not from God and the 10 commandments? Where? What is the basis of your values? The satanic bible? MSNBC? Whatever you feel like at the moment? Obviously, one of your values is to shield your children from God.

CHEW ON THIS - Jesus said in the Bible that to turn people away from him and God is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN - the ONLY ONE - in other words, as a parent or human being, to turn your child away from God is the WORST SIN imaginable.

You don't know how to be good without following a book?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.

So, forcing my child to recite an oath that references a God, when they're too young to make sense of it preserves their "ability to have options and choose for himself?"

Yet sheltering them from the dreaded word "God", by making sure they never hear it or learn that other people respect the notion, doesn't give them much option either. Does it?