And that's why I'll never understand why people kill little babies who were not born yet...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

National Merit scholarship winners haven't been chosen yet. Nice try, though, at making your story even more compelling.

Sure they have, they are selected every year. If the poster's kid is 18, which she said, it's entirely possible they have the decision by now (probably late last spring), and she has started college last fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What if a diagnosis was missed prenatally, and discovered at birth? Would you give your newborn a lethal injection to the heart then? Or is it only compassionate when your child is still inside your body?

This. And also, what if the diagnosis made prenatally was wrong. We were advised to consider terminating a pregnancy after prenatal testing revealed Trisomy 18. We were told that it was unlikely our daughter would be born alive. And that if she were, she would probably die within her first weeks of life. We were counseled to terminate to avoid putting our daughter through unnecessary pain.

They were wrong. I delivered a perfectly healthy baby. That baby is now 18. She is a national merit scholar who just received a full academic scholarship to college. Medicine isn't perfect. I can't help but remember that we considered ending the pregnancy. I am pro-life. But I will say that it is really easy to be pro-life when you aren't faced with the choice. I wavered on my pro-life stance and considered abortion after the diagnosis. I am thankful every single day that we chose to continue the pregnancy. I honestly wish I hadn't even been offered the choice.

National Merit scholarship winners haven't been chosen yet. Nice try, though, at making your story even more compelling.

That glitch makes me think that the story was made up entirely.

Not only does her story resonate with me, but my brother was a similar misdiagnosis.

He had spina bifida, and a host of related congenital abnormalities. My parents were told he was incompatible with life, and pressured to abort and spare him a slow, agonizing death in the womb as urine built up in his body, a stillbirth, or a death shortly after birth. They refused. When he was born, they assumed they would hold him as he died. He did not die. He went through a series of surgeries, including a 19 hour marathon the weekend I graduated from college, and today he is a bearded, brilliant composer and computer science major.

Such misdiagnoses are not uncommon. In fact, many eugenic abortions result in the destruction of perfectly healthy babies.

As screening becomes more widespread, the choice to abort a disabled or potentially disabled child is turning to a duty to do so:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/opinion/article/The-abortion-debate-that-wasn-t-1178454.php

What I can figure out is why any normal person would think I would make up something like that. Seriously? Because I said "national merit scholar" instead of "national merit finalist"??? I didn't know much about the program at all until we found out she qualified. My older kids certainly never even came close.

Also, why is my story difficult to believe? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable? Good! It should.

I didn't offer many details. But I would have been happy to have done so. My daughter's blood work was concerning. When I was pregnant with her (over eighteen years ago), ultrasounds weren't done as routinely. At least they weren't in my OB's office. The numbers in her blood work were off enough that we were sent for an ultrasound. During the ultrasound, the doctor found cysts on her brain as well as some abnormalities in her heart. The blood work and the ultrasound showed clear markers for Trisomy 18. We were counseled to consider terminating. Thankfully, we chose to continue the pregnancy. And we had a perfectly healthy baby. Of course not all stories have a happy ending. But pretending that mistakes don't happen is irresponsible. They happen. And even if they happen very rarely, isn't even one mistake too many?

So you never had an amnio that would make an actual diagnosis of Trisomy 18 and were counseled to terminate based on 2 screening tests? If that's the case, you had very poor doctors who didn't follow the standard of care.

Right? This is such BS. And if it's true, then yes, malpractice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous[/quote wrote: So you never had an amnio that would make an actual diagnosis of Trisomy 18 and were counseled to terminate based on 2 screening tests? If that's the case, you had very poor doctors who didn't follow the standard of care.

I wondered about this too. Did the PP have an actual diagnostic test like CVS or amnio? It was 18 years ago so I don't know whether these tests were available at that time. I can't imagine any doctor recommending that a patient consider termination without an actual diagnostic test result.

[Anonymous]

You were counseled to terminate, and considered doing so, without having an amnio? Wow. No wonder you feel thankful.

While there are of course misdiagnoses that occur, they are very very rare these days, and I think it is inappropriate to compare your situation, assuming it's true, to those of the other pps who terminated around 20/22 weeks for devastating medical conditions. Your poor odds did not equal a diagnosis, which is what they had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous[/quote wrote: So you never had an amnio that would make an actual diagnosis of Trisomy 18 and were counseled to terminate based on 2 screening tests? If that's the case, you had very poor doctors who didn't follow the standard of care.

I wondered about this too. Did the PP have an actual diagnostic test like CVS or amnio? It was 18 years ago so I don't know whether these tests were available at that time. I can't imagine any doctor recommending that a patient consider termination without an actual diagnostic test result.

This is 14:24. My mom had an amnio while pregnant with my sister 31 years ago. I'm not sure when CVS became available, but amnio was definitely an option 18 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

You know nothing about me, but if you want to say I'm evil because I believe in choice, go ahead. It really doesn't bother me. I am actually laughing at you.

It is your opinion that personhood begins at...conception I'm sure. Just LOL.

Not the PP you're quoting but when personhood starts?

When the child gets a birth certificate?

What about the baby in this story? Removed from the mother's womb alive, suffering pain, cold, hunger for DAAAAAAAAAAAAYS!!!! Was this little child a person or not?

You're heartless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous[/quote wrote: So you never had an amnio that would make an actual diagnosis of Trisomy 18 and were counseled to terminate based on 2 screening tests? If that's the case, you had very poor doctors who didn't follow the standard of care.

I wondered about this too. Did the PP have an actual diagnostic test like CVS or amnio? It was 18 years ago so I don't know whether these tests were available at that time. I can't imagine any doctor recommending that a patient consider termination without an actual diagnostic test result.

This is 14:24. My mom had an amnio while pregnant with my sister 31 years ago. I'm not sure when CVS became available, but amnio was definitely an option 18 years ago.

Honestly, I don't remember. I know that amnio was available back then. I don't remember it even being discussed. I didn't have to wait until she was born to learn that she was healthy. A later ultrasound revealed the cause: My dates were way off. From what I remember, cysts on the brain can be indicators of Trisomy 18. However, these cysts are normal up to a certain point. My daughter's ultrasound was completely normal for a baby of her gestational age. Unfortunately, the initial dating was incorrect. The blood tests were completely incorrect.

It's really important to remember that a lot of the routine tests that are offered now, were not offered when my older kids were born. Our oldest is almost 24. Our youngest is 9. I never had an ultrasound with my oldest. My daughter's ultrasound was only done when one of the blood tests showed abnormalities. When we found out I was pregnant with our youngest (Surprise!), it seems like I had an ultrasound at almost every appointment.

None of that changes the fact that I was counseled to consider terminating a perfectly healthy baby. No test is 100% reliable. And two screening tests showed problems that didn't exist. I know that most stories don't end like mine did. And I am so thankful that I had a healthy baby. I'm certainly not trying to make those who chose differently feel bad. I said earlier that on a different day, I might have made a different decision. I simply shared that I wish that the option to terminate had never been offered to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

These women were faced late in pregnancy with the knowledge that their babies were not developing propertly and would struggle and suffer and then die shortly after birth. They chose to end the pregnancy. If this happened to you, would you at least want the ability to consider that choice? I would.

I am the poster above who considered terminating after prenatal testing revealed Trisomy 18. I honestly wish I had never been offered the choice. I nearly ended the life of my perfectly healthy baby. The choice was agonizing. And I wish it had never been on the table. Unlike many pro-lifers, I have been there. It's really easy to be pro-life until you are facing the decision yourself. I am so thankful that I remained true to my convictions, but also very aware that on another day I could have made a very different choice. I was exhausted both emotionally and physically. I didn't have the ability to think clearly. I wish the option had never been offered.

On the same note, your baby could have been born with Trisomy 18 and lived only a week. Everyone makes their decisions based on the information they have. I would hate to not even have a CHOICE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

You know nothing about me, but if you want to say I'm evil because I believe in choice, go ahead. It really doesn't bother me. I am actually laughing at you.

It is your opinion that personhood begins at...conception I'm sure. Just LOL.

Not the PP you're quoting but when personhood starts?

When the child gets a birth certificate?

What about the baby in this story? Removed from the mother's womb alive, suffering pain, cold, hunger for DAAAAAAAAAAAAYS!!!! Was this little child a person or not?

You're heartless.

So you think because I'm pro-choice I don't think what happened is awful? So black and white. That's your problem. Of course I don't agree with what happened, but taking away women's rights is not the solution. What happened should not have happened. I don't see how being pro-choice has anything to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you feel bad, why not start a group to adopt unwanted babies? If you can guarantee adoption for unwanted babies, I'm sure they'll be less abortions.

But I think we all know that won't happen. People harp about saving babies, but nobody wants to take care of them after "saving" them.

And for people who claim to be "pro-life" and illegalize abortions... What are you going to do with the women who want to get an abortion? Throw them in jail? Fine them? (most of them are poor women).

Best solution is to keep it legal, offer counseling to avoid it, and every effort to support the mother during and after (if she changes her mind) birth (through childcare, food, education).

If America offered free childcare, birth control, and reproductive education to every women AND MEN, we could eliminate abortions that's not needed due to medical reasons.

I'm surprised you aren't aware of this, but there are hundreds of thousands of families in America attempting (and waiting) to adopt a baby. In fact, there are waiting lists in this country to adopt Down Syndrome (and other disabled) babies. There are even lists to adopt older babies. The only available children to adopt right now are those who are older (6 or 7 years old) and most, sadly, have serious issues.

There is absolutely no such thing as an "unwanted baby" in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

You know nothing about me, but if you want to say I'm evil because I believe in choice, go ahead. It really doesn't bother me. I am actually laughing at you.

It is your opinion that personhood begins at...conception I'm sure. Just LOL.

Not the PP you're quoting but when personhood starts?

When the child gets a birth certificate?

What about the baby in this story? Removed from the mother's womb alive, suffering pain, cold, hunger for DAAAAAAAAAAAAYS!!!! Was this little child a person or not?

You're heartless.

No one has answered that question. When? When is the "clump of cells" a baby? Viability gets earlier and earlier all the time. We hear stories of babies surviving at 22 weeks, some with no significant long term effects. Is that a person? Is it less of a person as long as it is inside the womb? No one would ever walk into a NICU and kill a baby born alive at 24 weeks. So when exactly is the baby enough of a baby to deserve protection? 12 weeks? 16? 22?..........

I don't have the answer to that question. And neither does anyone else.

[Anonymous]

"You do realize that the church goers who don't use contraceptives and the rhythm method are not going to abort."

This is so not true! I know so many church goers who have had abortions. They are women just like we are, and preachy as they might be, when they face difficult decision, they are still glad to have the option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"You do realize that the church goers who don't use contraceptives and the rhythm method are not going to abort."

This is so not true! I know so many church goers who have had abortions. They are women just like we are, and preachy as they might be, when they face difficult decision, they are still glad to have the option.

Yes. Some of the most pro-life families I know got abortions for their teen daughters. And then - here's the irony - the daughters go and have a bunch of kids after they get married in order to make up for their sin. Seriously, WTF?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

You know nothing about me, but if you want to say I'm evil because I believe in choice, go ahead. It really doesn't bother me. I am actually laughing at you.

It is your opinion that personhood begins at...conception I'm sure. Just LOL.

Not the PP you're quoting but when personhood starts?

When the child gets a birth certificate?

What about the baby in this story? Removed from the mother's womb alive, suffering pain, cold, hunger for DAAAAAAAAAAAAYS!!!! Was this little child a person or not?

You're heartless.

So you think because I'm pro-choice I don't think what happened is awful? So black and white. That's your problem. Of course I don't agree with what happened, but taking away women's rights is not the solution. What happened should not have happened. I don't see how being pro-choice has anything to do with it.

I'm the OP and we're not discussing choice here. I'm trying to discuss the way this procedure was held. If these children who are killed every day were considered real people and not "clump of cells" that can breath, feel pain, cold and hunger this would not have happened.

I'm also pro choice but we must find a way to make this right!


And you never answered my questions.

[Anonymous]

It's really important to remember that a lot of the routine tests that are offered now, were not offered when my older kids were born. Our oldest is almost 24. Our youngest is 9. I never had an ultrasound with my oldest. My daughter's ultrasound was only done when one of the blood tests showed abnormalities. When we found out I was pregnant with our youngest (Surprise!), it seems like I had an ultrasound at almost every appointment.

None of that changes the fact that I was counseled to consider terminating a perfectly healthy baby. No test is 100% reliable. And two screening tests showed problems that didn't exist. I know that most stories don't end like mine did. And I am so thankful that I had a healthy baby. I'm certainly not trying to make those who chose differently feel bad. I said earlier that on a different day, I might have made a different decision. I simply shared that I wish that the option to terminate had never been offered to me.

I actually think it changes a lot. You apparently wish the option had never been offered you because it would have been the result of a mistaken diagnosis, and you don't want that mistake made. Which is defensible, although I disagree. But you never had a diagnosis - you had a couple of screening tests, and never followed through witht he test that would have provided a definitive diagnosis. And you also admit that medical science has come a long way in 24 years.

So, let's keep it black and white. Assume that a woman has received a definitive diagnosis that the child she's carrying will not live. That is not in dispute. Not a bad screening result, not a high probability, not oor quality of life - the fetus has not developed properly, and will not live. Period. Likely won't even make it to term.

Do you seriously not want that woman to have the choice to terminate? And how do you justify that? Remember, mistaken diagnosis is off the table.