And that's why I'll never understand why people kill little babies who were not born yet...

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Remember when Obama was one of the only members to vote against the bill which would mandate giving babies born alive after an abortion proper medical care?

Happened at Christ Hospital in IL.

He was one of the only members to vote against it.

You are misrepresenting Obama's position here. While Obama was in the Illinois Senate, he voted against a a bill that would give aborted fetuses that showed signs of life full legal protections even if doctors believed they could not survive. Obama's vote was in committee and the bill was defeated in that committee. However, Obama's position was not in support of withholding medical care in such circumstances. Rather, the bill would have impacted the legality of abortions in Illinois. Indeed, the bill was later amended to make clear that it would not affect the legality of abortion and was passed into law. Obama was not in the Illinois Senate at that time, but says he would have supported it.

Your claim that Obama was "one of the only members to vote against it" is disputable. Obama was in the majority, otherwise the bill would have passed. So, he certainly was not one of the only members of the committee.

I found a more thorough and factual compilation of Obama's position here:

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/obama-and-infanticide/

Where are the discrepancies? That article says the same thing.

Obama voted against "born alive" laws in Illinois in 2001 and 2002. In 2002, the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act was passed
by UNANIMOUS CONSENT by the Senate and signed into law by then-President Bush.

In February 2003, the Illinois Senate again considered a state version of the "born alive" law, identical to the federal law. AGAIN, Obama voted against it.

That is a serious discrepancy. Obama angrily tried to say that people were "lying" about his voting record; he has tried to present the facts as you did, Jeff. He was eventually forced to backtrack. Here is a summary of his votes, and a timeline:

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

That is two discrepancies: he did, in fact, vote against the federal version of the law while in the Illinois senate, for one, and for another, his personal position is in the vast minority. Even NARAL stayed neutral on the federal law (grudgingly), and to be to the left of NARAL in terms of abortion support is to be really out there.

What is most creepy to me are his personal, public arguments against "born alive" laws. He said that to provide medical care to an infant who survived an abortion would be a "burden" to the mother's "original decision.". In other words, he argued that once a woman chooses to abort her child, she has the right to see her abortion completed, even after birth.

Read his own words about this issue--they're public record.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What if a diagnosis was missed prenatally, and discovered at birth? Would you give your newborn a lethal injection to the heart then? Or is it only compassionate when your child is still inside your body?

This. And also, what if the diagnosis made prenatally was wrong. We were advised to consider terminating a pregnancy after prenatal testing revealed Trisomy 18. We were told that it was unlikely our daughter would be born alive. And that if she were, she would probably die within her first weeks of life. We were counseled to terminate to avoid putting our daughter through unnecessary pain.

They were wrong. I delivered a perfectly healthy baby. That baby is now 18. She is a national merit scholar who just received a full academic scholarship to college. Medicine isn't perfect. I can't help but remember that we considered ending the pregnancy. I am pro-life. But I will say that it is really easy to be pro-life when you aren't faced with the choice. I wavered on my pro-life stance and considered abortion after the diagnosis. I am thankful every single day that we chose to continue the pregnancy. I honestly wish I hadn't even been offered the choice.

National Merit scholarship winners haven't been chosen yet. Nice try, though, at making your story even more compelling.

That glitch makes me think that the story was made up entirely.

Not only does her story resonate with me, but my brother was a similar misdiagnosis.

He had spina bifida, and a host of related congenital abnormalities. My parents were told he was incompatible with life, and pressured to abort and spare him a slow, agonizing death in the womb as urine built up in his body, a stillbirth, or a death shortly after birth. They refused. When he was born, they assumed they would hold him as he died. He did not die. He went through a series of surgeries, including a 19 hour marathon the weekend I graduated from college, and today he is a bearded, brilliant composer and computer science major.

Such misdiagnoses are not uncommon. In fact, many eugenic abortions result in the destruction of perfectly healthy babies.

As screening becomes more widespread, the choice to abort a disabled or potentially disabled child is turning to a duty to do so:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/opinion/article/The-abortion-debate-that-wasn-t-1178454.php

[Anonymous]

I think we can all agree as a first step to moving back in a more humane direction that abortions after a certain time period on viable babies should be outlawed. It is my opinion technology has advanced A LOT since roe vs wade and a study needs to be done to determine when a baby can feel pain or have consciousness. Once this is answered we can put a date on when late abortions should be outlawed except for in cases the baby is not viable and/or harms the mom. I strongly believe that if a study was performed that the abortion cut off date would be closer to 18 weeks. There have been many studies showing that pain can be felt at 18 weeks http://news.discovery.com/human/fetus-pain-abortion-law.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What if a diagnosis was missed prenatally, and discovered at birth? Would you give your newborn a lethal injection to the heart then? Or is it only compassionate when your child is still inside your body?

This. And also, what if the diagnosis made prenatally was wrong. We were advised to consider terminating a pregnancy after prenatal testing revealed Trisomy 18. We were told that it was unlikely our daughter would be born alive. And that if she were, she would probably die within her first weeks of life. We were counseled to terminate to avoid putting our daughter through unnecessary pain.

They were wrong. I delivered a perfectly healthy baby. That baby is now 18. She is a national merit scholar who just received a full academic scholarship to college. Medicine isn't perfect. I can't help but remember that we considered ending the pregnancy. I am pro-life. But I will say that it is really easy to be pro-life when you aren't faced with the choice. I wavered on my pro-life stance and considered abortion after the diagnosis. I am thankful every single day that we chose to continue the pregnancy. I honestly wish I hadn't even been offered the choice.

National Merit scholarship winners haven't been chosen yet. Nice try, though, at making your story even more compelling.

That glitch makes me think that the story was made up entirely.

Not only does her story resonate with me, but my brother was a similar misdiagnosis.

He had spina bifida, and a host of related congenital abnormalities. My parents were told he was incompatible with life, and pressured to abort and spare him a slow, agonizing death in the womb as urine built up in his body, a stillbirth, or a death shortly after birth. They refused. When he was born, they assumed they would hold him as he died. He did not die. He went through a series of surgeries, including a 19 hour marathon the weekend I graduated from college, and today he is a bearded, brilliant composer and computer science major.

Such misdiagnoses are not uncommon. In fact, many eugenic abortions result in the destruction of perfectly healthy babies.

As screening becomes more widespread, the choice to abort a disabled or potentially disabled child is turning to a duty to do so:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/opinion/article/The-abortion-debate-that-wasn-t-1178454.php

What I can figure out is why any normal person would think I would make up something like that. Seriously? Because I said "national merit scholar" instead of "national merit finalist"??? I didn't know much about the program at all until we found out she qualified. My older kids certainly never even came close.

Also, why is my story difficult to believe? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable? Good! It should.

I didn't offer many details. But I would have been happy to have done so. My daughter's blood work was concerning. When I was pregnant with her (over eighteen years ago), ultrasounds weren't done as routinely. At least they weren't in my OB's office. The numbers in her blood work were off enough that we were sent for an ultrasound. During the ultrasound, the doctor found cysts on her brain as well as some abnormalities in her heart. The blood work and the ultrasound showed clear markers for Trisomy 18. We were counseled to consider terminating. Thankfully, we chose to continue the pregnancy. And we had a perfectly healthy baby. Of course not all stories have a happy ending. But pretending that mistakes don't happen is irresponsible. They happen. And even if they happen very rarely, isn't even one mistake too many?

[Anonymous]

This is why birth control should be part of every, every person's life once they are of reproductive age and/or sexually active.

As a culture, we need to instill the importance of birth control - reliable birth control - in our kids. Every teenage girl should take the pill, get an IUD, get depo shots, whatever, take your pick. AND every sex act should involve a condom. Since I have been single and dating I am on the pill AND insist on a condom every time.

It is abhorrent and irresponsible that there is still a single abortion taking place in this country.

And I am rabidly pro choice, FYI.

The thing that makes me angriest, furious, is the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to restrict birth control. It is utterly, utterly illogical. It creates so much human suffering and contributes to the death of these unwanted babies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is why birth control should be part of every, every person's life once they are of reproductive age and/or sexually active.

As a culture, we need to instill the importance of birth control - reliable birth control - in our kids. Every teenage girl should take the pill, get an IUD, get depo shots, whatever, take your pick. AND every sex act should involve a condom. Since I have been single and dating I am on the pill AND insist on a condom every time.

It is abhorrent and irresponsible that there is still a single abortion taking place in this country.

And I am rabidly pro choice, FYI.

The thing that makes me angriest, furious, is the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to restrict birth control. It is utterly, utterly illogical. It creates so much human suffering and contributes to the death of these unwanted babies.

Well, I agree with you about contraception, but I also believes that there are indeed circumstances where abortion is not a tragedy. See the pp's posts about stillbirthing babies, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why birth control should be part of every, every person's life once they are of reproductive age and/or sexually active.

As a culture, we need to instill the importance of birth control - reliable birth control - in our kids. Every teenage girl should take the pill, get an IUD, get depo shots, whatever, take your pick. AND every sex act should involve a condom. Since I have been single and dating I am on the pill AND insist on a condom every time.

It is abhorrent and irresponsible that there is still a single abortion taking place in this country.

And I am rabidly pro choice, FYI.

The thing that makes me angriest, furious, is the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to restrict birth control. It is utterly, utterly illogical. It creates so much human suffering and contributes to the death of these unwanted babies.

Well, I agree with you about contraception, but I also believes that there are indeed circumstances where abortion is not a tragedy. See the pp's posts about stillbirthing babies, etc.

Pretty sure that they really mean elective abortions, not medically prudent or necessary ones.

[Anonymous]

Can someone show me the stats that say mostly poor women have abortions? The women I know who have had them were on some form of birth control and simply couldn't be bothered with a baby. They were not poor by any means.

[Anonymous]

Well you don't have to worry about harping on birth control because the ones against birth control are the ones against abortions so I am all for mandating it on everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why birth control should be part of every, every person's life once they are of reproductive age and/or sexually active.

As a culture, we need to instill the importance of birth control - reliable birth control - in our kids. Every teenage girl should take the pill, get an IUD, get depo shots, whatever, take your pick. AND every sex act should involve a condom. Since I have been single and dating I am on the pill AND insist on a condom every time.

It is abhorrent and irresponsible that there is still a single abortion taking place in this country.

And I am rabidly pro choice, FYI.

The thing that makes me angriest, furious, is the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to restrict birth control. It is utterly, utterly illogical. It creates so much human suffering and contributes to the death of these unwanted babies.

Well, I agree with you about contraception, but I also believes that there are indeed circumstances where abortion is not a tragedy. See the pp's posts about stillbirthing babies, etc.

Agreed PPs.

What SHOULD happen is that women who do not want to have children, or men who do not want children, should have sterilization covered by insurance. That would drastically reduce the number of birth control failures. And by sterilization, I mean, hysterectomy; like, making sure there isn't a chance of failure.

In addition, churches should not be allowed to teach the 'rhythm method' as birth control. It is NOT a form of birth control, period (no pun intended).

We need to stop this 'abstinence only' crap and talk to teens like the almost-adults they are. They're doing it, so educate them, don't deny it.

We need strong, consistent public education and even standard guidance from doctors/nurses to tell you that the pill is only 95% effective, that condoms are only 80% effective, and to present dual-barrier method options that would provide the most protection against unwanted pregnancy. And even tell you that hey, even if you have your tubes tied or the snip-snip, there is a chance you could still get pregnant. And this education needs to begin BEFORE puberty.

And then, if there is an issue, there should be no stigma for a woman to abort a 6-week-old cluster of cells once she realizes that her birth control failed. It should be easy, affordable, legal through the woman's OB, and there should also be mandatory education and counseling provided both before AND after without any sort of 'agenda' like 'making sure the woman sees the ultrasound' (as if all of us who are prochoice think it's any easier dealing with an abortion than those who are prolife; we are, after all, human too, and it is never an easy decision). Because part of the problem is that the way things are now, it can easily be 2-3 weeks between realizing you're pregnant and having the procedure. If anyone is uncertain about when a fetus starts to 'feel pain', etc., then it would be in everyone's best interest to stop development before the end of the first trimester by making first trimester abortions more readily available.

Anyone who sees life through rose-colored glasses and envisions the majority of would-be-aborted babies as having happy, stable lives should be glad that they are privileged enough to have that outlook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone show me the stats that say mostly poor women have abortions? The women I know who have had them were on some form of birth control and simply couldn't be bothered with a baby. They were not poor by any means.

Do you know a lot of poor people?

Oh and nothing about babies is in any way "simple".

[Anonymous]

I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how most of these liberal open pro-choice women carry so much evil in their hearts. Kill, kill, kill. They'll fight to save rats in DC but not babies. SMH.

You know nothing about me, but if you want to say I'm evil because I believe in choice, go ahead. It really doesn't bother me. I am actually laughing at you.

It is your opinion that personhood begins at...conception I'm sure. Just LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why birth control should be part of every, every person's life once they are of reproductive age and/or sexually active.

As a culture, we need to instill the importance of birth control - reliable birth control - in our kids. Every teenage girl should take the pill, get an IUD, get depo shots, whatever, take your pick. AND every sex act should involve a condom. Since I have been single and dating I am on the pill AND insist on a condom every time.

It is abhorrent and irresponsible that there is still a single abortion taking place in this country.

And I am rabidly pro choice, FYI.

The thing that makes me angriest, furious, is the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to restrict birth control. It is utterly, utterly illogical. It creates so much human suffering and contributes to the death of these unwanted babies.

Well, I agree with you about contraception, but I also believes that there are indeed circumstances where abortion is not a tragedy. See the pp's posts about stillbirthing babies, etc.

Agreed PPs.

What SHOULD happen is that women who do not want to have children, or men who do not want children, should have sterilization covered by insurance. That would drastically reduce the number of birth control failures. And by sterilization, I mean, hysterectomy; like, making sure there isn't a chance of failure.

In addition, churches should not be allowed to teach the 'rhythm method' as birth control. It is NOT a form of birth control, period (no pun intended).

We need to stop this 'abstinence only' crap and talk to teens like the almost-adults they are. They're doing it, so educate them, don't deny it.

We need strong, consistent public education and even standard guidance from doctors/nurses to tell you that the pill is only 95% effective, that condoms are only 80% effective, and to present dual-barrier method options that would provide the most protection against unwanted pregnancy. And even tell you that hey, even if you have your tubes tied or the snip-snip, there is a chance you could still get pregnant. And this education needs to begin BEFORE puberty.

And then, if there is an issue, there should be no stigma for a woman to abort a 6-week-old cluster of cells once she realizes that her birth control failed. It should be easy, affordable, legal through the woman's OB, and there should also be mandatory education and counseling provided both before AND after without any sort of 'agenda' like 'making sure the woman sees the ultrasound' (as if all of us who are prochoice think it's any easier dealing with an abortion than those who are prolife; we are, after all, human too, and it is never an easy decision). Because part of the problem is that the way things are now, it can easily be 2-3 weeks between realizing you're pregnant and having the procedure. If anyone is uncertain about when a fetus starts to 'feel pain', etc., then it would be in everyone's best interest to stop development before the end of the first trimester by making first trimester abortions more readily available.

Anyone who sees life through rose-colored glasses and envisions the majority of would-be-aborted babies as having happy, stable lives should be glad that they are privileged enough to have that outlook.

You do realize that the church goers who don't use contraceptives and the rhythm method are not going to abort.
Also there are communities that are very religious and practice abstianance. Abstiance would work if all the horny teeangers followed but they don't. The problem I have is the schools teaching them about contraceptives and making students feel like it's ok and have a green light to go have sex. If we are insistent on sex education through schools, they should also teach that it is wrong to have sex and risky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What if a diagnosis was missed prenatally, and discovered at birth? Would you give your newborn a lethal injection to the heart then? Or is it only compassionate when your child is still inside your body?

This. And also, what if the diagnosis made prenatally was wrong. We were advised to consider terminating a pregnancy after prenatal testing revealed Trisomy 18. We were told that it was unlikely our daughter would be born alive. And that if she were, she would probably die within her first weeks of life. We were counseled to terminate to avoid putting our daughter through unnecessary pain.

They were wrong. I delivered a perfectly healthy baby. That baby is now 18. She is a national merit scholar who just received a full academic scholarship to college. Medicine isn't perfect. I can't help but remember that we considered ending the pregnancy. I am pro-life. But I will say that it is really easy to be pro-life when you aren't faced with the choice. I wavered on my pro-life stance and considered abortion after the diagnosis. I am thankful every single day that we chose to continue the pregnancy. I honestly wish I hadn't even been offered the choice.

National Merit scholarship winners haven't been chosen yet. Nice try, though, at making your story even more compelling.

That glitch makes me think that the story was made up entirely.

Not only does her story resonate with me, but my brother was a similar misdiagnosis.

He had spina bifida, and a host of related congenital abnormalities. My parents were told he was incompatible with life, and pressured to abort and spare him a slow, agonizing death in the womb as urine built up in his body, a stillbirth, or a death shortly after birth. They refused. When he was born, they assumed they would hold him as he died. He did not die. He went through a series of surgeries, including a 19 hour marathon the weekend I graduated from college, and today he is a bearded, brilliant composer and computer science major.

Such misdiagnoses are not uncommon. In fact, many eugenic abortions result in the destruction of perfectly healthy babies.

As screening becomes more widespread, the choice to abort a disabled or potentially disabled child is turning to a duty to do so:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/opinion/article/The-abortion-debate-that-wasn-t-1178454.php

What I can figure out is why any normal person would think I would make up something like that. Seriously? Because I said "national merit scholar" instead of "national merit finalist"??? I didn't know much about the program at all until we found out she qualified. My older kids certainly never even came close.

Also, why is my story difficult to believe? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable? Good! It should.

I didn't offer many details. But I would have been happy to have done so. My daughter's blood work was concerning. When I was pregnant with her (over eighteen years ago), ultrasounds weren't done as routinely. At least they weren't in my OB's office. The numbers in her blood work were off enough that we were sent for an ultrasound. During the ultrasound, the doctor found cysts on her brain as well as some abnormalities in her heart. The blood work and the ultrasound showed clear markers for Trisomy 18. We were counseled to consider terminating. Thankfully, we chose to continue the pregnancy. And we had a perfectly healthy baby. Of course not all stories have a happy ending. But pretending that mistakes don't happen is irresponsible. They happen. And even if they happen very rarely, isn't even one mistake too many?

So you never had an amnio that would make an actual diagnosis of Trisomy 18 and were counseled to terminate based on 2 screening tests? If that's the case, you had very poor doctors who didn't follow the standard of care.