Norway's child protective service and Indian immigrants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now you finay exactly what happens when you don't do exactly what they want you to do. Silly Americans. So cute with your "freedom" and "rights". So clueless about the rest of the world.

Where are you from? You sound like a bitch.

All Americans are clueless? Have you been to other countries? Indians are incredibly racist. Save your insults. They don't help your case at all.

Um, I am going to hope you were being facetious when you said Indians were racist, because you're not exactly doing Americans any favors with that statement.

I'm Indian. And I find Americans to be less racist than Indians in general. Calling people 'Silly Americans' was just condescending and rude. Maybe that attitude is why they found that the poor kid in the story was 'arrogant' and obnoxious in school.

I will also add that some Indian kids' behavior is absolutely atrocious. Yes, some American kids also behave terribly, but Indians are by no mean, perfect. I am often horrified by how some of my nieces and nephews behave in public, and at home. Their parents seem to not care about discipline at all. And, especially with regards to sons - they seem to deserve some special treatment where they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior. Bedtime at my SILs house is always a nightmare for her. And, the kids are allowed to be disrespectful without consequence. Again, this is not ALL Indian kids - I for one, am trying my best not to raise my kids this way - but, there is a different approach to parenting.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if the DCUM community would spend 1/2 a second thinking about the kids being taken from homes right here in DC.

But that's not nearly as interesting.

[Anonymous]

The hand feeding thing is gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It is immaterial how good Norway is about everything else and how awful India is otherwise, on the issue of these children being taken away, Norway is plain wrong. And btw the Indian government doesn't come out smelling like roses. Any country that truly cared about it's citizens--and both parents and the children are Indian citizens--would come down on this like a ton of bricks. I know Hillary would if something like this ever happened to me--and grateful for that.

I'm going to guess that this has something to do with money. Just a guess, so no basis for fact here, but that's just how things run in India.

Those who have the most money, and are able to offer the biggest bribes, are the ones who are able to get things done. For whatever reason, this family hasn't been able to pay off the right people to make things happen in this case. It's just the way India works.

Yes, the US has it's share of corruption, but it's not nearly at the level of India's. There is obviously something stopping the Indian government from taking a stand, and usually that comes down to cash.

[Anonymous]

I will also add that some Indian kids' behavior is absolutely atrocious. Yes, some American kids also behave terribly, but Indians are by no mean, perfect. I am often horrified by how some of my nieces and nephews behave in public, and at home. Their parents seem to not care about discipline at all. And, especially with regards to sons - they seem to deserve some special treatment where they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior. Bedtime at my SILs house is always a nightmare for her. And, the kids are allowed to be disrespectful without consequence. Again, this is not ALL Indian kids - I for one, am trying my best not to raise my kids this way - but, there is a different approach to parenting.



And this justifies taking infant/toddler kids away from their parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The hand feeding thing is gross.

How do you eat wings? Or cheetos?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Different cultures have different standards. Which culture is right? As immigration into different countries by vastly different cultures increases I am afraid we will see more of this. If you move to another culture, you have to assimilate a bit to local customs. I am not sure what Norway did is right as I haven't read the child protective services' file on the family. I cannot imagine that cosleeping is that taboo in Norway though!

I will say many people from other countries come here to graduate school (China, India, Iran, Bangladesh, Pakistan to name some from my classes) and expect their traditions and cultural norms to be honored here. Our culture is vastly different from theirs.

Wasn't there a case here in the US where a Scandinavian woman who left her baby in a stroller outside of a restaurant while she was inside (because that is what they do in her home country) was arrested and her child taken from her?

We also find appalling and criminalize things that are ok in other countries like honor killings.

I read that some state, maybe CA, was considering taking into account the cultural background of criminals during trial.

Here is the outcome from the 1997 incident: A similar incident made international headlines and sparked a transatlantic debate in 1997 when a Danish mother was arrested after leaving her baby daughter in a stroller on a New York City sidewalk to go inside a restaurant for a drink. A federal jury in Manhattan later rejected her claim that police had falsely arrested her but did award her $66,000 in compensatory and punitive damages following the ordeal. Here's the NYT story: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/15/nyregion/danish-mother-s-claim-of-false-arrest-is-rejected.html?ref=annettesorensen

Reporting on the August 2011 incident in Amherst, Mass, is sketchy, but don't think the kid was taken away as a result: Cayenne B. Isakseen, spokeswoman for the state Department of Children and Families, confirmed that the incident is being investigated. “We will look at this as either an attempt to educate the family or provide support and service if applicable,” Isaksen said. The woman’s nationality, Isaksen said, has no bearing on the matter. “If we receive a report alleging abuse and neglect we investigate,” she said. From http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/swedish_woman_who_allegedly_le.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I will also add that some Indian kids' behavior is absolutely atrocious. Yes, some American kids also behave terribly, but Indians are by no mean, perfect. I am often horrified by how some of my nieces and nephews behave in public, and at home. Their parents seem to not care about discipline at all. And, especially with regards to sons - they seem to deserve some special treatment where they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior. Bedtime at my SILs house is always a nightmare for her. And, the kids are allowed to be disrespectful without consequence. Again, this is not ALL Indian kids - I for one, am trying my best not to raise my kids this way - but, there is a different approach to parenting.

And this justifies taking infant/toddler kids away from their parents?

No, of course not. But, I could possibly see where there's a situation if the kid is extremely misbehaving in the classroom - acting out by hitting/biting other kids that it would raise some concern. Just something to think about. If it's not normally accepted for kids to behave that way, then seeing a kid acting obnoxiously would certainly raise red flags.

[Anonymous]

I will usually sing the highest praises of Scandinavia, and I have family in Sweden.

But this is just so wrong, I don't know how it could go through, after being turned down by the court initially, and I don't know why India is not up in arms about it.

I hold Norway to a higher standard than this, clearly the children should be returned to their parents. But enough of the talk: OP, is there noone in the Indian community collecting signatures? Are there no Indian lawyers jumping on this case?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I will also add that some Indian kids' behavior is absolutely atrocious. Yes, some American kids also behave terribly, but Indians are by no mean, perfect. I am often horrified by how some of my nieces and nephews behave in public, and at home. Their parents seem to not care about discipline at all. And, especially with regards to sons - they seem to deserve some special treatment where they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior. Bedtime at my SILs house is always a nightmare for her. And, the kids are allowed to be disrespectful without consequence. Again, this is not ALL Indian kids - I for one, am trying my best not to raise my kids this way - but, there is a different approach to parenting.

And this justifies taking infant/toddler kids away from their parents?

No, of course not. But, I could possibly see where there's a situation if the kid is extremely misbehaving in the classroom - acting out by hitting/biting other kids that it would raise some concern. Just something to think about. If it's not normally accepted for kids to behave that way, then seeing a kid acting obnoxiously would certainly raise red flags.

Well, if it does not justify taking the children from their parents, what is your point? You do realize as well that there is a five month child involved and this child would not have any of the issues you mention. If the older child was misbehaving how does it help to exclude the parents from his life? The evidence, as it exists, does not suggest these extremes. The older kid could be on the autism spectrum...removing him from his parents is the worst outcome. The only way such a move could be justified is if there was clear evidence of physical or sexual abuse. In all other situations, the removal of very little children is unjustified, no matter how inappropriate you think Indian parenting can be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, Mrs Early Assumption. I'm not talking about India. Why did you think I was?

Maybe because this entire thread is about an Indian family?

What country were you referring to then? Two posters asked and you did not respond. I'll guess you were just making shit up.

Keep guessing 8)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will usually sing the highest praises of Scandinavia, and I have family in Sweden.

But this is just so wrong, I don't know how it could go through, after being turned down by the court initially, and I don't know why India is not up in arms about it.

I hold Norway to a higher standard than this, clearly the children should be returned to their parents. But enough of the talk: OP, is there noone in the Indian community collecting signatures? Are there no Indian lawyers jumping on this case?

OP here: the Hindu-American foundation, based in DC, was the one big U.S.-based organization I've heard of so far that's taken up the cause. India is up in arms and the case has escalated to the highest levels of the Indian government. The children's maternal grandparents met with Indian President Pratibha Patel on 1/21 and she assured them she would work on getting the children released). I've pasted a link below to the story from Hindu-American Foundation's website. They met with the Norwegian ambassador to the U.S. and had a petition (now closed) that collected over 6,000 signatures. The part of the story I found very strange was that as of the day the story appeared on the foundation's website, the Norwegian Embassy was unable to confirm the agreement reached by India and Norway that would allow the children to be handed over to the children's paternal uncle. I've been searching for news coverage, and the only thing I can find it is that the father's brother left India last Wednesday (Feb. 1). There have been no reports that I can find on what has happened since, and when he will be able to take custody, if this is a legitimate agreement. I'm also surprised that, given the number of Indian-Americans who have weighed in, and the fact that these issues could easily affect Americans citizens abroad, that there has been no U.S. press coverage of the issue:

http://www.hafsite.org/HAF_encouraged_by_Norwegian_ambassador_meeting

Story from Indian Express about grandparents' meeting with Indian prez: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/president-assures-help-to-indian-couple-in-norway/902501/0

[Anonymous]

Here's a link. It has a few more details on his taking custody.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/article2831465.ece

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the link. According to the last article, the uncle is being appointed the children's guardian until they are 18 years old. Does that mean he is allowed to take the children back to India? The whole story boggles the mind.

[Anonymous]

Just a few points: This case has not gotten a lot of attention in Norwegian media. The only Norwegian news sources linked in this thread seem to be fringe sources, often with an axe to grind.

Here is the one article that I can find from the mainstream media:

http://mobil.nettavisen.no/?name=nettavisen&i=9805§ion_id=27&guid=3316927

The Norwegian Child Protection Services have a duty of complete confidentiality. They are not allowed to release any information on why a child is removed from its parents. They have however, issued a denial that any of the quotes matters weighed heavily on the decision. Also, they are not allowed to remove a child from its parents. They have to petition the Social Services for a warrant, which will only be given if the matter appears sufficiently serious. This particular case was appealed to the appeals authority, Fylkesmannen. She does get all the information, and came down quite heavily on the side of the social services.

So to summarize: No-one outsiode the parents and the authorities knows why this decision was made. But since the authorities cannot release that information, the other side is free to say anyting they like. However, every instance and individual with the full facts of the case have supported the child protection services desicion.

This does not neccessarily mean that the decision was correct. From reading about the case, the boy did seem to have som autistic-type self-harming traits that could easily have made red flags go up with social workers who have Baby Phttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/baby-p-the-official-files-1023092.html in fresh memory. But we don't know. We just know that everyone who does know, supports the CPS in this case.