Norway's child protective service and Indian immigrants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Different cultures have different standards. Which culture is right? As immigration into different countries by vastly different cultures increases I am afraid we will see more of this. If you move to another culture, you have to assimilate a bit to local customs. I am not sure what Norway did is right as I haven't read the child protective services' file on the family. I cannot imagine that cosleeping is that taboo in Norway though!

I will say many people from other countries come here to graduate school (China, India, Iran, Bangladesh, Pakistan to name some from my classes) and expect their traditions and cultural norms to be honored here. Our culture is vastly different from theirs.

Wasn't there a case here in the US where a Scandinavian woman who left her baby in a stroller outside of a restaurant while she was inside (because that is what they do in her home country) was arrested and her child taken from her?

We also find appalling and criminalize things that are ok in other countries like honor killings.

I read that some state, maybe CA, was considering taking into account the cultural background of criminals during trial.

I would f*cking riot in the streets if they do that here!! Moral relativism is not good!! Our laws pertain to all regardless of cultural background!

They would still suffer the legal consequences of their actions but the cultural background would be considered maybe in sentencing. Sort of like how they sometimes consider why an abused spouse killed their abuser. They get jail time for the murder but maybe not as long.

Moral relativism. I would f*cking riot! Not acceptable. Assume Supreme Court would not allow. They should receive the same sentence as anyone else!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here: yes, that was what I read in a news report. It's important to read as much of the news as possible. Clearly, on some level, the parents were in over the head and/or Norwegian child protective authorities saw things they didn't like and made some very dangerous assumptions. The approach is incredibly punitive, and quite frightening, but this is not a first for Norway's child protective service. Read some of the materials by Marianne Haslev Skånland, a Norwegian scholar who is affiliated with the Nordic Committee for Human Rights and who has been tracking this issue for many years. There are reports of similar forced separation out of Sweden and the UK as well. There appears to be a blurry line between a mission to protect the children's interests and perpetuating cultural ignorance. There were many ways the child protection workers could have dealt with this, but they chose a particularly horrifying route that preyed on the vulnerabilities of an immigrant family with limited ability to appeal the court decision.

OP you are utterly correct. If this happened to an American family with the same exact facts these PPs would be up in arms. Instead they are displaying their xenophobia. It's disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here: yes, that was what I read in a news report. It's important to read as much of the news as possible. Clearly, on some level, the parents were in over the head and/or Norwegian child protective authorities saw things they didn't like and made some very dangerous assumptions. The approach is incredibly punitive, and quite frightening, but this is not a first for Norway's child protective service. Read some of the materials by Marianne Haslev Skånland, a Norwegian scholar who is affiliated with the Nordic Committee for Human Rights and who has been tracking this issue for many years. There are reports of similar forced separation out of Sweden and the UK as well. There appears to be a blurry line between a mission to protect the children's interests and perpetuating cultural ignorance. There were many ways the child protection workers could have dealt with this, but they chose a particularly horrifying route that preyed on the vulnerabilities of an immigrant family with limited ability to appeal the court decision.

OP you are utterly correct. If this happened to an American family with the same exact facts these PPs would be up in arms. Instead they are displaying their xenophobia. It's disgusting.

Not true. I would say the same if it were an American family. Don't move to another country and expect it to be like home. It isn't. You are all extremely naive, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does "hand fed" mean?

Are you serious????



Some cultures eat with their hands, you know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here: yes, that was what I read in a news report. It's important to read as much of the news as possible. Clearly, on some level, the parents were in over the head and/or Norwegian child protective authorities saw things they didn't like and made some very dangerous assumptions. The approach is incredibly punitive, and quite frightening, but this is not a first for Norway's child protective service. Read some of the materials by Marianne Haslev Skånland, a Norwegian scholar who is affiliated with the Nordic Committee for Human Rights and who has been tracking this issue for many years. There are reports of similar forced separation out of Sweden and the UK as well. There appears to be a blurry line between a mission to protect the children's interests and perpetuating cultural ignorance. There were many ways the child protection workers could have dealt with this, but they chose a particularly horrifying route that preyed on the vulnerabilities of an immigrant family with limited ability to appeal the court decision.

OP you are utterly correct. If this happened to an American family with the same exact facts these PPs would be up in arms. Instead they are displaying their xenophobia. It's disgusting.

Not true. I would say the same if it were an American family. Don't move to another country and expect it to be like home. It isn't. You are all extremely naive, IMHO.

Of course you have to follow the rules in a new country. Of course. But you don't think they overreached? They have not seen their children in 9 months!

[Anonymous]

Yes, true.

If you did 2 nights of CIO in my coutry they'd take your kids away no questions asked if the neighbor reported you. And all your fellow American moms would be here defending you.

It's a matter of perception. You guys think you're the best in the world and you believe you hold the absolute truth in your hands and this is disgusting. There's a huge range of normal and healthy. This poor woman was sick and they took her children away. They're taking advantage of her citizenship status on top of everything. This wrong in so many levels!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here: yes, that was what I read in a news report. It's important to read as much of the news as possible. Clearly, on some level, the parents were in over the head and/or Norwegian child protective authorities saw things they didn't like and made some very dangerous assumptions. The approach is incredibly punitive, and quite frightening, but this is not a first for Norway's child protective service. Read some of the materials by Marianne Haslev Skånland, a Norwegian scholar who is affiliated with the Nordic Committee for Human Rights and who has been tracking this issue for many years. There are reports of similar forced separation out of Sweden and the UK as well. There appears to be a blurry line between a mission to protect the children's interests and perpetuating cultural ignorance. There were many ways the child protection workers could have dealt with this, but they chose a particularly horrifying route that preyed on the vulnerabilities of an immigrant family with limited ability to appeal the court decision.

OP you are utterly correct. If this happened to an American family with the same exact facts these PPs would be up in arms. Instead they are displaying their xenophobia. It's disgusting.

Not true. I would say the same if it were an American family. Don't move to another country and expect it to be like home. It isn't. You are all extremely naive, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, true.

If you did 2 nights of CIO in my coutry they'd take your kids away no questions asked if the neighbor reported you. And all your fellow American moms would be here defending you.

It's a matter of perception. You guys think you're the best in the world and you believe you hold the absolute truth in your hands and this is disgusting. There's a huge range of normal and healthy. This poor woman was sick and they took her children away. They're taking advantage of her citizenship status on top of everything. This wrong in so many levels!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not true. I would say the same if it were an American family. Don't move to another country and expect it to be like home. It isn't. You are all extremely naive, IMHO.

If an American couple lost their children in your country for CIO, I would not defend them (and not because I am against CIO). When you move to another culture you have to follow their laws/customs. I do feel terrible for the family who lost their child. I feel for any parent in their situation! I would get my child back (by any means) and get the hell out of there! I now would never consider moving to Norway too, if they have that type of crazy child protective services.

I don't feel we are the best in the world. I know that, as an American woman, I wouldn't make it in other cultures though. I would be the woman on the news being stoned to death for not wearing a veil or driving and would expect no one to defend me! You must admit you take risks moving to different countries. DH is not from America, he agrees with this statement!

[Anonymous]

Of course you take risks moving to another country, but there is a limit. These parents have not seen their children in nine months, and I have yet to see the evidence of abuse or something else of that nature. The children have not even seen any of their family members!

[Anonymous]

Perhaps there is more to the story than is being reported.

I freely admit it is very difficult for me to watch my children's Indian grandparents hand-feed them, just because it is not something I am accustomed to, and runs counter to my sensibilities. But to raise that to the level of child abuse? That's absurd.

[Anonymous]

13:39 here, I stand corrected: based on reading other news items, it does appear that the parents have been able to see their children on a few instances since they were taken.

[Anonymous]

This is ridiculous. None of us know the details of the case or can even speak the language of most of the news reports. We also don't know anything about the reporting culture in Norway. Yet, we are all willing to take the word of the accused parents. The reports which have changed continuously. Firstly it was co sleeping, suddenly there was physical abuse and "the parents couldn't cope".

In other words, WE DON'T KNOW JACK.

Also, who exactly is criticizing Norway and their child protection system? Norway, this would be the country which ranks TOP in the world for quality of life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index .That's right. And according to UNICEF, out of the developed nations, it also ranks sixth for child welfare... behind Switzerland, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Spain and Finland. America is second from bottom. www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc7_eng.pdf .Maybe in Norway, they actually DO something about child abuse, I don't know, call the police instead of pulling a Joe Pa, and that's why their kids do so much better.

[Anonymous]

For all you people who think Norwegian child protective services has a point saving Norway's superior effing child rearing norms, yeah you know jack! They could have sent the parents and the kids back to where they came from, but no they chose instead to keep the children. The Norwegian CPS has not reported the following charges: co sleeping, hand feeding, and emotional disconnect of the mother (probably post-partum depression), nothing else. All of which suggest she needed help rather than a ruling that allows the parents to see the children a few times a YEAR.

You go live in a welfare state run amok. reminds me of Lisbeth Salander character. no wonder the book struck such a chord. Frankly, f--k Norway. It is now my shit-list.

[Anonymous]

This is heartbreaking. Even if the parents were abusive, there is no reason for any child to be in foster care when there are other adult family members who are willing and able to care for them.

And yes, as an American married to an Indian, I and my family have a VERY hard time when we are in India seeing adults slapping kids across the back of their heads. The hand-feeding of older kids and lack of orderly sleep habits also make me feel judgmental, though not appalled. But man, if you are going to take young kids away from their parents, you need to both have extremely good justification and the desire to place them first and foremost with people who will be the best replacements-- sounds like these kids have plenty of family members who love them and would care for them.

Sounds like this case has become about more than what's best for the kids, which is sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For all you people who think Norwegian child protective services has a point saving Norway's superior effing child rearing norms, yeah you know jack! They could have sent the parents and the kids back to where they came from, but no they chose instead to keep the children. The Norwegian CPS has not reported the following charges: co sleeping, hand feeding, and emotional disconnect of the mother (probably post-partum depression), nothing else. All of which suggest she needed help rather than a ruling that allows the parents to see the children a few times a YEAR.

You go live in a welfare state run amok. reminds me of Lisbeth Salander character. no wonder the book struck such a chord. Frankly, f--k Norway. It is now my shit-list.

You are an idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For all you people who think Norwegian child protective services has a point saving Norway's superior effing child rearing norms, yeah you know jack! They could have sent the parents and the kids back to where they came from, but no they chose instead to keep the children. The Norwegian CPS has not reported the following charges: co sleeping, hand feeding, and emotional disconnect of the mother (probably post-partum depression), nothing else. All of which suggest she needed help rather than a ruling that allows the parents to see the children a few times a YEAR.

You go live in a welfare state run amok. reminds me of Lisbeth Salander character. no wonder the book struck such a chord. Frankly, f--k Norway. It is now my shit-list.

You are an idiot.

I maybe an idiot, but you have no idea about what it means to be separated from your child.