Forum Index
»
Private & Independent Schools
Accommodation requests for sitting for SAT and ACT college entrance and talent search examinations
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
Anonymous
Why is it acceptable for a 9th or 10th grader to take the PSAT? Is it necessary? When do you think it is necessary to take the PSAT? (It only counts in the 11th grade) What is a genuine need for additional time to take the PSAT? The College Board's research suggests that many affluent whites do not have a genuine need (refer to NYTimes article). Why do affluent white students game the system by getting extra time to sit for the PSAT? Why can't a young student take PSAT? |
Anonymous
Are you serious? Wow. Okay, let me answer these and hope you understand. Most students take the SATs in their Junior or Senior year of high school, depending on how many times they plan to take it and what their plans for for college applications. As such, some elect to take the PSATs earlier and will do so during 10th grade or maybe 9th grade. A genuine need would be a diagnosed learning disability that impacts the speed at which one is able to complete the test. Affluent white students game the system because they come from entitled families with questionable ethics. A young student can take the PSAT, but I struggle to see the value in doing so in the 4th grade. |
Anonymous
|
The College Board does not prohibit younger students from taking the PSAT or SAT exam. Even Talent searches throughout the land and some scholarship organizations use the SAT as a screening tool for their middle schoolccandidates. I suspect you are also against this practise due to your bogus theory about developmental appropriateness. There is no age or grade requirements imposed by the College Board. Why should young students subcribe to your more stringent rule or philosophy when those who have developed the test don't prevent youngsters from taking it? You are not the final authority on who should take the PSAT and when? (foreigners, homeschoolers, young students, older students etc.)
But, the issue at hand regarding gaming the system is real. No wonder schools in affluent areas of this country have median SAT and PSAT scores that hit the ceiling. These kids are rare or not truly gifted in your parlance but simply kids you have gamed the system for years with test prep squared, accommodations and more time to take the test than other students. |
Anonymous
|
Face up to reality and local custom and practice in affluent schools. There's absolutely nothing wrong with advantages that come with being in the know and of higher socioeconomic status but don't pretend and hide behind false illusions of brilliance and my school is better than yours mentality (many students are taking exams in cognito in different halls/testing centers under with a accommodation and 50 % extra time to complete the exam).
Give everyone the extra 50% and it will help eliminate this nonsense/foolishness and even the playing field. These will give one a better appreciation of what the relative scores mean? This epidemic of score and grade inflation is simply a pathologic sign of how we game the educational system in this country. And when we get caught at the game we have to listen to shifting excuses. |
Anonymous
|
Anonymous
Did I ever purport to have the final word on the subject? The test is not designed for 4th graders. It is unlikely that a typical 4th grader can complete the test in time. If they need additional time to take it, as a function of their age and not any other learning disability, that is evidence that the test is not appropriate for them. Does that mean they can't take it or that anyone who administers it to them should be locked away? Of course not. But if the student is unable to meet the most basic expectations for the test, which is to finish in the allotted time, then that is pretty indicative of whether or not it is a reasonable assessment for them. I like how you refer to the concept of developmental appropriateness as "bogus". What do you think we should do? Just throw crap at kids regardless of what research and practice tells us makes sense based on physical, social, emotional, and cognitive development? Good idea! |
Anonymous
No one is debating who or what the test was designed for? The SAT test was not designed for middle school students yet over 100,000 take it every year in this country including some kids in upper elementary school. And many reputable organizations use this instrument (off label) that was not designed for these specific purpose to exam young middle school aged students. If older students, presumably developmentally appropriate, game the system and get an extra 50% time to complete the test and affect the performance curves this is more reason why a 4th grader, presumably developmentally inappropriate, should also get the extra 50% time to complete the test. This levels the playing field and restore a more valid performance curve. There are many students in the 10 -12 th grades that "are unable to meet the most basic expectations for the test, which is to finish in the allotted time." By your logic "this is pretty indicative of whether or not it is reasonable assessment for them." I would wager that you may have difficulty finishing all sections of the PSAT if you were to take this exam. Would this inabilty to complete the exam condemn you or the many other students that do not finish all the sections of the exam to a diagnosis of a learning disability. Would it be appropriate to state the exam was developmentally inappropriate for you? I'm sure you are aware that barely 25% of the US population have a college degree and less than 50% of students will go on to college. Your understanding of what is developmentally appropriate for an individual is bogus. No one is suggesting to throw crap at kids. But if kids have talent and expertise (music, sports, math arts, reading) then throw them the crap if they crave the crap. Do not forget that kids mature, physically, intellectually, emotionally, musically, athletically, socially at different rates. Chronologic age in children like in geriatric populations may not fit your bogus cookie cutter theory. I have taken care of many 50-year-olds with bodies, minds and physiology of a 70 year-old and 70-year-olds with bodies, minds and physiology of 40 and 50 year olds. |
Anonymous
Honestly, I can't decide if you are being argumentative or just plain stupid.
Of course the College Board does not prohibit younger students from taking standardized tests. Why would they? They are, and should be, open to the fact that there are some truly gifted students out there who are ready to take the test designed as a measure of college readiness because they are ready to attend college. What you apparently fail to grasp is that is the sole reason for the existence of the PSAT/SAT from the point of view of the College Board. So called "talent searches" and other "scholarship organizations" are merely using the College Board's policy to serve their own ends, as a screening tool for their middle school placements. This is not what the test is for. Therefore, if you want to use a test for the purpose other than the one it was actually designed for, go ahead, but don't expect me to think your 4th grader needs accommodation to complete all the sections. If your private school or "talent search" competition wants to write separate rules for their special accommodations to fit a test to a purpose and population for whom it was not designed, go ahead. Just call it what it is. Appropriation.
Developmental appropriateness is not a bogus theory. The test is meant for college admission decisions. If your 4th grader isn't applying to college, I don't think they should take the test. If you want them to take the test, don't expect support for extended time to complete a test that is not meant for any other purpose than applying to college. See a theme here?
Beyond the first sentence, you are making no sense here. Yes, gaming the system is real. But I am pretty certain that the NYTimes article is talking about gaming in the system that the College Board actually has an interest in...that of National Merit Scholarship competition and college admission. In this arena, I am, and remain, disgusted by the measures parents will go to game the system. |
Anonymous
|
Since you assert and fundamentally believe the purpose of the test is for college entrance purposes when students from affluent schools have mean scores that hit the top ceiling (>2100) do you really believe that this is useful or discriminating and serves the purpose as a valid test for college entrance purposes?
Over the decades, the test has essentially become worthless for college entrance purposes since extensive test preparation and accommodations for the elite many students around the country have reached the ceiling for this exam. I'm sure you don't get my drift since you are wedded to the authoritarian entrepreneurs that developed this exam in the first place. Get rid of it or if you can't get rid of the cash cow then give everyone the extra 50% time (including the 4th graders). |
Anonymous
Except that if the 4th grader and the 10th grader are taking the test for completely different reasons, and the scores are used for different purposes, they are playing on completely different fields, so any leveling means nothing. What measures of validity (or reliability, for that matter) do you think are accounted for in your scenario? |
Anonymous
Maybe the difficulties of an anonymous forum are at play here, but make no mistake, I don't believe for one second that standardized tests are useful, discriminating, or in any way serves the purpose of being a valid test for college admissions. You will not find a person more critical of standardized tests as a measure of anything useful than me. We agree. The test is useless and there is shameless gaming of the system and this is serving no one. Especially the students.
This is where I think there are two conversations occurring at once. Sure, get rid of it. Or give everyone extra time. But I still don't think 4th graders need to be taking this test. It is not meant for them. It is not meant for their "GT magnets" or "talent searches" or anything. If we agree it is not a valid test for its purpose, why on earth would we advocate its use for any other use? |
Anonymous
|
$since sth graders may not hit the ceiling it appears these test are becoming more appropriate fot thiz group since the scores do not hit th ceiling. When median scores max what use is the test. Similar analogy to all D0UM kids scoring 99 percentil on the WPPSI. The exam is therefore rendered useless.
|
Anonymous
Are you serious? When affluent private and public schools in the country have mean test scores at the ceiling you believe these students should be taking this test because it was meant for them? That so many students score so high on this exams explains why many of the top schools can reject a whole class worth students with perfect scores! Now let's think about this ... perhaps the test is more appropriate for middle school children from these affluent communities as not everyone will hit the ceiling and max score with a perfect 800. It may be a better tool at separating the wheat from the chaff. Have you seen the performances of hundreds of these middle school kids at the CTY, TIP, C-mites and NUMATS awards ceremonies? There are so many with above 700 (top score 800) scores on the SAT and above 30 (top score 36) on the ACT. The SAT is no longer valid for populations that consistently hit the ceiling score! It's useless. It can't discriminate between the tens of thousands of students with perfect scores. It is more valid a tool for populations not consistently hitting the ceiling score (this includes high performing upper elementary school and middle school students). Therefore, the younger kids should have the same accommodations with respect to > 50% extra time as the older kids who game the system. Then the scoring and playing field is even and fairer. You may then find that more middle school kids will have perfect scores on the SAT, ACT and PSAT just like the older kids many of whom are notorious for gaming the testing system. If you look at physical performance over the last 50 years you will find that processing speed, reflexes, instincts have improved in man (witness the faster times for the 100 yd dash and 400 meter IM, the high jump, the javelin). Are you even suggesting the brain (neurons) and intelligence are any different from muscle and peripheral nerves? Don't you think the SAT, ACT and PSAT performance bar (like in sports and athletics) has moved too? There are more higher performing PSAT, SAT and ACT middle school and high school students today than 30 years ago. There are more perfect scores today on these tests than 30 years ago. How does this fit with your one size fits all neat, bogus, cookie cutter theories about what is developmentally appropriate? Some scientists and physiologists half a century believe that the sub 4 minute mile was humanly impossible until a physician from Oxford ran the first sub 4 minute mile. Today, a super 4 min miler is a slow poke! |
Anonymous
The purpose for taking the exam is irrelevant to this discussion. The scoring of the exam should remain consistent for internal and external validity. If older and wiser high school students and their affluent families are gaming the system by requesting and gaining 50% extra time to take the PSAT, ACT and SAT exams then upper elementary and middle school students, less savy and cunning, should have the extra 50% time to take these tests. This will level the playing field and restore some internal and external validity to the scores. I don't care whether it is a high school student (taking this "appropriate" test as you claim) for the 10th time in anticipation of taking it in the 11th grade for college admissions, or a middle school student taking it for talent search purposes, a scholarship or fun. It's irrelevant to me why they are taking it; but I am well aware it bothers you. |
Anonymous
Spoken from someone who does not have children that have taken these exams (PSAT, SAT and ACT) as upper elementary or middle school students. The majority of these kids are not taking these exams to head off to college. Many youngsters take these exams to help them place into courses of their interest at the next level (e.g. high school, community college and local area colleges) during the year or over the summer. These keeps them challenged and stimulated until many of them are ready to head to college fulltime at 16 or 17. It may be hard for you to imagine there are many youngsters with knowledge and expertise in computer science and programming, mathematics, science, engineering and creative writing. Many elementary and middle schools have no avenues for these capable kids to develop their talents and interests. As a consequence, these kids remain intellectual unchallenged and unstimulated for years while their passion and fire is extinguished by ennui. It is very difficult for school systems (middle and high schools, special camps and programs, community college and local universities) to accept these youngsters on face value because of attitudes like the one you espouse regarding what is developmentally appropriate or politically correct. When many of these students are scoring higher than the mean for the students in high school and the colleges on the PSAT, SAT and ACT exams this performance goes along way to convincing teachers and administrators at the next level that the kid can do the work. It provides a metric they can relate to. Most of these administrators took the same exams in high school. When they see kids score higher than they themselves or their students on the SAT, PSAT and ACT they are more willing to consider whether a child has fullfilled prerequisites to participate in their curriculum. These opportunies for these kids have been great outlets. While you have admitted having no clue or struggling with why a youngster may opt to take the PSAT, SAT or ACT; at the end of the day respectable scores have proven some of the best ammunition and advocates for higher and more appropriate placement for some of these very capable kids. |