MLS next ruining high school soccer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

Sorry I meant to reply to the previous quote you replied to

[Anonymous]

“I'll correct myself here: there is an "other" option that I'm glossing over. Are you saying that the league allows "other" for public school kids?”

If you’re going to play HS soccer then the form needs to be signed. Otherwise you are an ass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just gotta say, my son is an excellent U8 soccer player, and reading this stuff makes soccer parents sound so unhinged. It’s also why I haven’t let him try out for any of the most competitive clubs despite those coaches literally approaching us at tournaments and asking him to come to a practice. And it’s also why I don’t let him attend the off season practices and let him play basketball, lacrosse, and summer swim. They’re children. And I would rather him play literally any other sport as a teenager than soccer, because soccer in this region is unhinged. You should hear yourselves.
(Except you OP- clearly let your kid play high school soccer. These children are not pro athletes. Nor will they become pro athletes.)

Funny that you think parents aren’t unhinged in other sports. Go take a look at some of the other forums. There are swim parents who keep a spreadsheet of other people’s children’s times. And come on. Don’t act like you’re above everyone if you are posting on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just gotta say, my son is an excellent U8 soccer player, and reading this stuff makes soccer parents sound so unhinged. It’s also why I haven’t let him try out for any of the most competitive clubs despite those coaches literally approaching us at tournaments and asking him to come to a practice. And it’s also why I don’t let him attend the off season practices and let him play basketball, lacrosse, and summer swim. They’re children. And I would rather him play literally any other sport as a teenager than soccer, because soccer in this region is unhinged. You should hear yourselves.
(Except you OP- clearly let your kid play high school soccer. These children are not pro athletes. Nor will they become pro athletes.)

Funny that you think parents aren’t unhinged in other sports. Go take a look at some of the other forums. There are swim parents who keep a spreadsheet of other people’s children’s times. And come on. Don’t act like you’re above everyone if you are posting on here.

I mean it was just in the most recent posts list. But ok. And yes some lacrosse parents are crazy too but nothing like soccer in my town. And summer swim is incredibly laid back! Or maybe just for my family, since my kids don’t make A meets, haha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just gotta say, my son is an excellent U8 soccer player, and reading this stuff makes soccer parents sound so unhinged. It’s also why I haven’t let him try out for any of the most competitive clubs despite those coaches literally approaching us at tournaments and asking him to come to a practice. And it’s also why I don’t let him attend the off season practices and let him play basketball, lacrosse, and summer swim. They’re children. And I would rather him play literally any other sport as a teenager than soccer, because soccer in this region is unhinged. You should hear yourselves.
(Except you OP- clearly let your kid play high school soccer. These children are not pro athletes. Nor will they become pro athletes.)

Funny that you think parents aren’t unhinged in other sports. Go take a look at some of the other forums. There are swim parents who keep a spreadsheet of other people’s children’s times. And come on. Don’t act like you’re above everyone if you are posting on here.

I mean it was just in the most recent posts list. But ok. And yes some lacrosse parents are crazy too but nothing like soccer in my town. And summer swim is incredibly laid back! Or maybe just for my family, since my kids don’t make A meets, haha

Summer swim is the equivalent of rec soccer. I bet there are plenty of laid back parents there too. Once you get to a certain level of commitment and/or ability in any sport, you end up running into some crazy parents unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MLS fines club if your kid plays HS

I have never heard of a player being fined

its not the player its the club. And yes it happens. Just takes a person to tell the league and they investigate. And plenty of parents willing to turn them in. Want to play crappy HS play in a different club league.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MLS fines club if your kid plays HS

I have never heard of a player being fined

its not the player its the club. And yes it happens. Just takes a person to tell the league and they investigate. And plenty of parents willing to turn them in. Want to play crappy HS play in a different club league.

Well every club in the area should be fined thousands of dollars immediately. They are playing and this notion that is crappy at least in liberty district is insane. College coaches actually prefer they play some high school soccer, it gives a different level of competitiveness and playing for a school. I’m sorry to tell you that MLS next is not this level of soccer you are being told about. Most of the MLS next are not even playing college soccer and almost none (non academies are going pro). The best soccer team in the area last year was Arlington’s top u-19 team, they beat all the MLS next teams they played. MLS next is this area is a complete money scam and the fact that we have so many of them should make this obvious to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

9th graders should not play on Varsity. They will get hurt. They should be on JV with kids they can physically match up with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

9th graders should not play on Varsity. They will get hurt. They should be on JV with kids they can physically match up with.

In theory, yes. However, keep in mind that smaller school programs might not have that luxury.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

9th graders should not play on Varsity. They will get hurt. They should be on JV with kids they can physically match up with.

Well I guess 18 year olds shouldn’t play with 22-25 year olds.? One of the best things that could ever happen for a kid is to play older competition. 3 years may be a bit too much for most kids but the pace of play is a shock to kids and it tests how fast their brains works which is something we need to develop a lot more in this country if we want to be competitive. I see tons of top middle school soccer players fail because they don’t understand how to play or have problems adjusting to the speed of play of older ages, high school helps these kids with that transition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so OP - you came on here to complain about the rules you agreed to when you signed to your club and to brag that you are violating the rules because you don't think you'll be punished. got it.

I just wanted to see everyone's thoughts. Standing up to stupid rules is what makes people change the rules. Not allowing players to play more soccer is why our country will never win a world cup.

if you think violating rules you don't like is how to get people to change rules, you are mistaken. Same goes for complaining about it here.

Fair point. My son has decided to play for HS besides his NVA duties. If he is removed, he’ll join another MLS next club. I put the money down. NVA doesn’t pay my son to play for them.

Here's the deal. It's not a club rule. It's an MLS Next (HG/Academy) rule based on similar rules with overseas academies around exclusivity. It's no different than the way they own "training" rights if your kid wants to go overseas. None of those are negotiated points with a club, they're part of the charter for play and you inherit them when you accept the offer, whether you chose to read it or not. They delegate enforcement of high school to the clubs, which means that how much sway or influence a club has with MLS Next leadership to look the other way determines how strict they need to be on enforcement. In the DMV, it mostly means people stay quiet about it and the clubs don't look too closely. It can result in forfeits or other punishment by the national body, but generally nothing happens except a few kids each year having to quit high school ball partial way through the season.

True. I personally don't care if MLSN1 allows HS or not, what I hate is the blatant hypocrisy for how the current rule is set and 'enforced'. Either allow HS or don't but stop with the bullshit private school waivers and the complete lack of enforcement. It is a joke and makes the league look weak.

How many MLS Next HG players also play HS?
Should be an interesting number for sake of this dramatic emotional thread

Almost the entirety of Lightridge HS was MLS next. Hence why they’re current state 5 champions. It’s a lot simpler than you think it is. The squad was lightyears ahead of any other school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

9th graders should not play on Varsity. They will get hurt. They should be on JV with kids they can physically match up with.

Kind of a blanket statement.

What if the kid has been active his whole life and doing body weight calisthenics for since he was 10. Would you still feel that way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so OP - you came on here to complain about the rules you agreed to when you signed to your club and to brag that you are violating the rules because you don't think you'll be punished. got it.

I just wanted to see everyone's thoughts. Standing up to stupid rules is what makes people change the rules. Not allowing players to play more soccer is why our country will never win a world cup.

if you think violating rules you don't like is how to get people to change rules, you are mistaken. Same goes for complaining about it here.

Fair point. My son has decided to play for HS besides his NVA duties. If he is removed, he’ll join another MLS next club. I put the money down. NVA doesn’t pay my son to play for them.

Here's the deal. It's not a club rule. It's an MLS Next (HG/Academy) rule based on similar rules with overseas academies around exclusivity. It's no different than the way they own "training" rights if your kid wants to go overseas. None of those are negotiated points with a club, they're part of the charter for play and you inherit them when you accept the offer, whether you chose to read it or not. They delegate enforcement of high school to the clubs, which means that how much sway or influence a club has with MLS Next leadership to look the other way determines how strict they need to be on enforcement. In the DMV, it mostly means people stay quiet about it and the clubs don't look too closely. It can result in forfeits or other punishment by the national body, but generally nothing happens except a few kids each year having to quit high school ball partial way through the season.

True. I personally don't care if MLSN1 allows HS or not, what I hate is the blatant hypocrisy for how the current rule is set and 'enforced'. Either allow HS or don't but stop with the bullshit private school waivers and the complete lack of enforcement. It is a joke and makes the league look weak.

How many MLS Next HG players also play HS?
Should be an interesting number for sake of this dramatic emotional thread

Almost the entirety of Lightridge HS was MLS next. Hence why they’re current state 5 champions. It’s a lot simpler than you think it is. The squad was lightyears ahead of any other school.

Yeah this is true, along with riverside these are the only two decent Loudoun and I don’t think either of them would make it out of the division 6d region. This is why people in Loudoun hate on high school soccer. Fairfax is much better. The good news is they look on merging div 5 and 6 in the next few years and only have 4 divisions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play MLS Next AD and HS soccer and stop whining. You knew when you signed up for MLS HD you were foregoing playing for your HS.

We will continue to do both and allow our children to play as much as possible so they improve at a faster rate than others. If there is any punishment, which I strongly doubt, we will deal with it.

Hi volume of poorly coached bad soccer isn't improving anything, except apparently your tolerance and acceptance of low level soccer

As a club coach and former high school coach. I can tell you there is some very good high school boys soccer, not every team. But last years McLean, Westfield and Herndon are beat every MLS next team U17 in the area. And for a young player there can be significant benefit of playing high school. Is every team good, absolutely not. For girls soccer there is no reason for any top girls player to play except maybe the liberty district.

In which competition did the HS teams play against the MLS Next teams?

There is not but as a coach I can recognize talent and those teams had much more talent than any team at the u17(11th grade) mls next flex cup. High school games are available online. Watch them yourself. Don’t fall for the MLS directors narrative so they can raise fees on you every year.

Are you comparing HS Varsity teams to MLS U17s?

Why is this bad, the average age of a varsity team is probably 17. Obviously older mls next teams will be better and younger will be worse. I actually think players can benefit a lot playing on different teams for different coaches. Sometimes the dynamics just don’t work for your child and sometimes they do.

You know nothing about soccer if you think diversity of coaches is automatically a good thing
Kids are better off with no coach than a bad coach

The Geography teacher being a part-time HS coach vs the MLS Next U17 coach with high level playing experience and years of coaching experience

Not to mention the HS team with several part-time players taking time during a break from their primary sport

I told my son that instead of complaining about the level of play being below his club team, to instead use HS ball as a way to work on his communication and leadership skills on the field. Players can always find something to work on, regardless of the level of play

It’s pretty obvious you don’t play in the Liberty District. 9th and 10th grade MLS next players can’t even get decent playing time on the varsity team and many 9th don’t make the varsity team.

9th graders should not play on Varsity. They will get hurt. They should be on JV with kids they can physically match up with.

Kind of a blanket statement.

What if the kid has been active his whole life and doing body weight calisthenics for since he was 10. Would you still feel that way?

Most boys are still in peak growth spurt in 9th grade. It doesn't matter if they are in great shape and regularly lift weights, they can't and shouldn't be expected to physically compete with older boys who are basically fully grown adult men. Testosterone is a very powerful thing!