College admissions from low SES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries.

Colleges aren't looking at what trophies are sitting on a school's shelf. They're looking at a student's individual achievements.

It doesn't matter that a school has 20 all-state band players; it matters what YOUR does child do on the band? If your child one of 45 clarinet players on the marching band field? Or is your child part of the leadership team on the band, and has been since sophomore year?

And yes, maybe your child is the top clarinet player on the band, first out of 45 players. That's great! But that also means 44 players are just supporting players at that school, and they won't have as strong a college application.

If you play things by cold, hard numbers, your child's chances of building a strong college application are harder at a larger, higher SES school with more competition.

That’s the point. An individual student’s accomplishments are less likely to be impressive by the time they are applying to college when they’ve come up through a mediocre pyramid. They’ve spent years being treated like they were exceptional when in fact they were only above average. This is illustrated by the very small number of NMSFs and Commended Students in the lowest rated FCPS schools, year after year.

Sure, there are a few outliers, but there’s a reason for the adage that “the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire.”

If attending a low-performing school truly provided a competitive advantage, you’d see the parents most intent on their kids attending a top school flock to the likes of Annandale, Justice, or Herndon. The exact opposite is what happens - in particular, the Asian enrollment is increasing rapidly at Langley and plunging in some of the lowest rated schools.

You’re wrong and you don’t understand. A middle or UMC Asian student is going to be equally successful at any FCPS school. Langley just has more from the top 1% that can buy success. There isn’t any “fire forging steel” unless you mean rich kids on drugs but getting away with it.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.[/quote]

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries. [/quote]

Colleges aren't looking at what trophies are sitting on a school's shelf. They're looking at a student's individual achievements.

It doesn't matter that a school has 20 all-state band players; it matters what YOUR does child do on the band? If your child one of 45 clarinet players on the marching band field? Or is your child part of the leadership team on the band, and has been since sophomore year?

And yes, maybe your child is the top clarinet player on the band, first out of 45 players. That's great! But that also means 44 players are just supporting players at that school, and they won't have as strong a college application.

If you play things by cold, hard numbers, your child's chances of building a strong college application are harder at a larger, higher SES school with more competition. [/quote]

That’s the point. An individual student’s accomplishments are less likely to be impressive by the time they are applying to college when they’ve come up through a mediocre pyramid. They’ve spent years being treated like they were exceptional when in fact they were only above average. This is illustrated by the very small number of NMSFs and Commended Students in the lowest rated FCPS schools, year after year.

Sure, there are a few outliers, but there’s a reason for the adage that “the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire.”

If attending a low-performing school truly provided a competitive advantage, you’d see the parents most intent on their kids attending a top school flock to the likes of Annandale, Justice, or Herndon. The exact opposite is what happens - in particular, the Asian enrollment is increasing rapidly at Langley and plunging in some of the lowest rated schools. [/quote]


But it will be harder for students of those “higher performing” schools to get into the more competitive universities, especially schools like UVA, because those schools have a higher concentration of applicants.

So a student from Justice that has the aptitude, certainly has an advantage over the student from Langley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries.

Colleges aren't looking at what trophies are sitting on a school's shelf. They're looking at a student's individual achievements.

It doesn't matter that a school has 20 all-state band players; it matters what YOUR does child do on the band? If your child one of 45 clarinet players on the marching band field? Or is your child part of the leadership team on the band, and has been since sophomore year?

And yes, maybe your child is the top clarinet player on the band, first out of 45 players. That's great! But that also means 44 players are just supporting players at that school, and they won't have as strong a college application.

If you play things by cold, hard numbers, your child's chances of building a strong college application are harder at a larger, higher SES school with more competition.

That’s the point. An individual student’s accomplishments are less likely to be impressive by the time they are applying to college when they’ve come up through a mediocre pyramid. They’ve spent years being treated like they were exceptional when in fact they were only above average. This is illustrated by the very small number of NMSFs and Commended Students in the lowest rated FCPS schools, year after year.

Sure, there are a few outliers, but there’s a reason for the adage that “the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire.”

If attending a low-performing school truly provided a competitive advantage, you’d see the parents most intent on their kids attending a top school flock to the likes of Annandale, Justice, or Herndon. The exact opposite is what happens - in particular, the Asian enrollment is increasing rapidly at Langley and plunging in some of the lowest rated schools.

But it will be harder for students of those “higher performing” schools to get into the more competitive universities, especially schools like UVA, because those schools have a higher concentration of applicants.

So a student from Justice that has the aptitude, certainly has an advantage over the student from Langley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It all evens out. My kid is at a high SES school and a friend is at a low SES school. They know each other from club sports. It’s true, it is much easier to make the sports team at the low SES school. At her friend’s school, club players easily made JV or varsity in 9th grade while at our school club players were competing for spots on the freshman team.

But there are other opportunities besides sports at our school and even more opportunities at our school that they don’t even have that their school. We have so many ECs.

Quoting my own post because I just thought of something. None of this matters for sports anyway. Any serious athletes of any sport is playing club, which is how our kids know each other. HS is not their main season and not the important thing for college.

I don’t know how it works for advanced band and orchestra or theater, but I imagine you’d want your child at the best program available with the best training and resources if that’s their passion. I don’t know if that’s a school program or outside of school privately, depending on where you live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It all evens out. My kid is at a high SES school and a friend is at a low SES school. They know each other from club sports. It’s true, it is much easier to make the sports team at the low SES school. At her friend’s school, club players easily made JV or varsity in 9th grade while at our school club players were competing for spots on the freshman team.

But there are other opportunities besides sports at our school and even more opportunities at our school that they don’t even have that their school. We have so many ECs.

Quoting my own post because I just thought of something. None of this matters for sports anyway. Any serious athletes of any sport is playing club, which is how our kids know each other. HS is not their main season and not the important thing for college.

I don’t know how it works for advanced band and orchestra or theater, but I imagine you’d want your child at the best program available with the best training and resources if that’s their passion. I don’t know if that’s a school program or outside of school privately, depending on where you live.

Not true for rowing and Olympic sports which is how the wealthy rig their way into many top colleges.

[Anonymous]

Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

We’d see better NMSF/CS results at the lower ranked schools if all the UMC families needed to do was buy into those schools and then pay for tutoring.

Nope, if you want to prepare your kids well, you make sure they attend schools with high performing peers, not schools that focus on the bare minimum needed to get kids to graduate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It all evens out. My kid is at a high SES school and a friend is at a low SES school. They know each other from club sports. It’s true, it is much easier to make the sports team at the low SES school. At her friend’s school, club players easily made JV or varsity in 9th grade while at our school club players were competing for spots on the freshman team.

But there are other opportunities besides sports at our school and even more opportunities at our school that they don’t even have that their school. We have so many ECs.

Quoting my own post because I just thought of something. None of this matters for sports anyway. Any serious athletes of any sport is playing club, which is how our kids know each other. HS is not their main season and not the important thing for college.

I don’t know how it works for advanced band and orchestra or theater, but I imagine you’d want your child at the best program available with the best training and resources if that’s their passion. I don’t know if that’s a school program or outside of school privately, depending on where you live.

Not true for rowing and Olympic sports which is how the wealthy rig their way into many top colleges.

Are you the same poster who is trying to push crew on every thread for college admissions now? We aren’t buying this. Not many of us have super tall kids, that into rowing, to try to get to college. Please stop this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

We’d see better NMSF/CS results at the lower ranked schools if all the UMC families needed to do was buy into those schools and then pay for tutoring.

Nope, if you want to prepare your kids well, you make sure they attend schools with high performing peers, not schools that focus on the bare minimum needed to get kids to graduate.

Um, ok. I don’t think kids that barely graduate get into schools like UVA or William and Mary, Boston College, Villanova. All you have to do is look at any Instagram decision page for any school you see as low performing. Sorry the truth hurts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

We’d see better NMSF/CS results at the lower ranked schools if all the UMC families needed to do was buy into those schools and then pay for tutoring.

Nope, if you want to prepare your kids well, you make sure they attend schools with high performing peers, not schools that focus on the bare minimum needed to get kids to graduate.

My kid's at a low SES school, and I can say firsthand that the schools aren't doing the bare minimum. My kid's taking advanced courses, is challenged, and is thriving.

A constant refrain I hear is that a class at a high SES school is better than than a class at a lower SES school. As someone whose kids have attended both high and low SES schools, they've had good and not-so-good teachers at both. The hands-down worst teacher ever was at the high SES school.

My kids have taken advanced courses, and yes, there is a "school-within-a-school" aspect of doing so. My kids are surrounded by high-achieving peers in their advanced courses -- and yes, such a peer group exists at low SES schools. But believe it or not, even kids NOT taking the advanced classes can be high achieving. There are kids from lower incomes, often working part-time while in high school, and they plan to be the first in their family to attend college.

Are there as many advanced courses as higher SES schools? No. Are there smaller classrooms? Yes. I'll also add that my kids have encountered far fewer hallway fights at the lower SES school than they did at the high SES school. Like FAR fewer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

We’d see better NMSF/CS results at the lower ranked schools if all the UMC families needed to do was buy into those schools and then pay for tutoring.

Nope, if you want to prepare your kids well, you make sure they attend schools with high performing peers, not schools that focus on the bare minimum needed to get kids to graduate.

My kid's at a low SES school, and I can say firsthand that the schools aren't doing the bare minimum. My kid's taking advanced courses, is challenged, and is thriving.

A constant refrain I hear is that a class at a high SES school is better than than a class at a lower SES school. As someone whose kids have attended both high and low SES schools, they've had good and not-so-good teachers at both. The hands-down worst teacher ever was at the high SES school.

My kids have taken advanced courses, and yes, there is a "school-within-a-school" aspect of doing so. My kids are surrounded by high-achieving peers in their advanced courses -- and yes, such a peer group exists at low SES schools. But believe it or not, even kids NOT taking the advanced classes can be high achieving. There are kids from lower incomes, often working part-time while in high school, and they plan to be the first in their family to attend college.

Are there as many advanced courses as higher SES schools? No. Are there smaller classrooms? Yes. I'll also add that my kids have encountered far fewer hallway fights at the lower SES school than they did at the high SES school. Like FAR fewer.

+100

[Anonymous]

We have experienced both a top pyramid and an average FCPS pyramid. Have all the teachers in the top pyramid been great? No. Have the teachers overall been better and had higher expectations for students? Yes. Have the counseling departments and college admissions been superior? Definitely.

Of course YMMV but our experience underscored why people work hard to get their kids into the top pyramids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are compared against their peers in their high school first. So yes standing out gives one an advantage in college admissions.

Many FCPS high schools are schools within schools. A group going on to college, a group taking advantage of vocational training opportunities and a group where high school is the terminal education point.

Having a 1580 SAT and a 4.5 GPA at West Potomac is going to stand out more than those same figures at TJ or McLean or Langley.

It’s less likely you’ll end up with that 1580 SAT if you’ve come up through the West Potomac pyramid. And only a few schools are going to care about making sure they offer seats to kids from every FCPS high school.

Bullshit. Pyramids don’t produce 1580’s. Paying for tutoring does.

We’d see better NMSF/CS results at the lower ranked schools if all the UMC families needed to do was buy into those schools and then pay for tutoring.

Nope, if you want to prepare your kids well, you make sure they attend schools with high performing peers, not schools that focus on the bare minimum needed to get kids to graduate.

My kid's at a low SES school, and I can say firsthand that the schools aren't doing the bare minimum. My kid's taking advanced courses, is challenged, and is thriving.

A constant refrain I hear is that a class at a high SES school is better than than a class at a lower SES school. As someone whose kids have attended both high and low SES schools, they've had good and not-so-good teachers at both. The hands-down worst teacher ever was at the high SES school.

My kids have taken advanced courses, and yes, there is a "school-within-a-school" aspect of doing so. My kids are surrounded by high-achieving peers in their advanced courses -- and yes, such a peer group exists at low SES schools. But believe it or not, even kids NOT taking the advanced classes can be high achieving. There are kids from lower incomes, often working part-time while in high school, and they plan to be the first in their family to attend college.

Are there as many advanced courses as higher SES schools? No. Are there smaller classrooms? Yes. I'll also add that my kids have encountered far fewer hallway fights at the lower SES school than they did at the high SES school. Like FAR fewer.

It’s not difficult to check the number of incidents that raised safety concerns on the VDOE report cards. For the last school year reported Herndon had 256 and Langley 37.