College admissions from low SES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will get way more opportunity at a “lesser” school because they can thrive in an environment that isn’t a pressure cooker. Can some kids thrive in that kind of environment? Sure. But for most kids it isn’t sustainable. They can play on a variety of sports teams because it isn’t as competitive. They are maybe more middle to top of the pack because they aren’t in a competitive academic environment. and as others have pointed out, there is a higher chance of getting into more competitive/elite universities.

There isn’t a higher chance of getting into a more competitive university because most kids in those environments will have been challenged less and will end up with lower scores and less impressive achievements by the time they apply to college.

That’s generally understood in real life, which is why people seek out the top K-12 schools.

please don’t speak about things you know nothing about. All you have to do is take a look at the colleges and universities the graduates from ALL of the high schools in FCPS attend. And this just reflects the school the student chose and not all the schools they got accepted into.

You know nothing about any of these individual students and what their capabilities are.

We do know about some of their capabilities, or at least accomplishments, as they are far less frequently recognized for academic achievements.

The title of the post refers to college admissions, not specific academic achievements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This isn’t just about Langley and McLean. People with options pick West Springfield over Lewis, Woodson over Falls Church, etc.

Then let’s make them more equitable

[Anonymous]

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will get way more opportunity at a “lesser” school because they can thrive in an environment that isn’t a pressure cooker. Can some kids thrive in that kind of environment? Sure. But for most kids it isn’t sustainable. They can play on a variety of sports teams because it isn’t as competitive. They are maybe more middle to top of the pack because they aren’t in a competitive academic environment. and as others have pointed out, there is a higher chance of getting into more competitive/elite universities.

There isn’t a higher chance of getting into a more competitive university because most kids in those environments will have been challenged less and will end up with lower scores and less impressive achievements by the time they apply to college.

That’s generally understood in real life, which is why people seek out the top K-12 schools.

I hear this a lot -- that children are challenged less in a lower SES school. Are there different maths taught from one school to another? What is geometry like at Langley? And how is it different at Herndon? Is there Math for Rich People and Math for Poor People?

No. In every FCPS, the curriculum is the same. The difference is the number of students taking the challenging courses. At Langley, I would imagine there are multiple sections of AP Calculus. But at Herndon, maybe there's only two sections of AP Calculus. The classroom teacher makes a huge impact on the individual classroom experience. You could have an awful teacher at Langley and a fantastic teacher at Herndon, or vice versa. In the AP/IB classrooms, you are going to have motivated capable students at the high SES high schools and the low SES high schools.

My children went to one of the low SES IB high schools and they both did the full IB diploma. One ran into a scheduling issue and was unable to take his first choice in science because there was only one section of IB French. And it was the same period as the one section of his first IB science choice. The positives: My children were never in overcrowded classrooms. In fact, my oldest only had 15 students in his IB math class his junior and senior year. He had a fantastic teacher and she was really able to give the students more individualized instruction than she would have been able to do if she had a class with 30 students.

Now if you are taking Gen Ed classes, I would imagine that Herndon has significantly more students who are way below grade level than the same Gen Ed course at Langley. So if I had students that were going to be doing mostly Gen Ed courses, I would be worried about sending my student to one of the low SES schools. But for a student who is doing all AP/IB courses, I believe any of the FCPS high schools are going to be challenging for any student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High SES status is an advantage, not the disadvantage posited in the OP.

One advantage it affords is the ability to send one's kids to schools where the main focus isn't merely getting kids to pass SOLs and graduate, which tends to drag down all the students and keep top students from reaching their full potential.

PP knows this, which is why they argued for "balancing" the wealth and poverty at different schools, a form of overt social engineering that FCPS eschews despite its occasional left-leaning rhetoric.

Almost all differences relate back to wealth or lack of wealth.

Assuming this to be true, one of these differences is the differences in school cultures.

Few believe that, as a general proposition, if you take two kids from families with similar financial resources, the one attending a lower SES school will fare better. There may be exceptions, of course. But you're tilting at windmills if you want to claim higher SES people are behaving irrationally when it comes to selecting school pyramids.

Bad culture is a product of poverty. Low SES schools are dealing with the byproducts of poverty which can spiral into all kinds of issues.

I'm not so certain that poverty alone ties into bad culture. After all, so far this year, I've gotten a notice of a student overdose death at WSHS, as well as a gun incident involving WSHS and LBSS students that resulted in strict screening for all football games.

I wasn't aware that poverty was a problem at WSHS or LBSS, but there are issues there regardless.

Let’s not become irrational. Even wealthy private schools have some discipline issues. But concentrations of poverty are tied to higher crime, etc. If you think WSHS and LBSS have bad cultures you should send your kid to Herndon.

Says someone who has clearly never set foot in Herndon or Justice or any other school that gets trashed on this board regularly. The culture at these schools is not really that different from anywhere else in FCPS. There is a bit of a "school within a school" environment, but those seeking a high SES culture/experience can certainly find it within any FCPS school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will get way more opportunity at a “lesser” school because they can thrive in an environment that isn’t a pressure cooker. Can some kids thrive in that kind of environment? Sure. But for most kids it isn’t sustainable. They can play on a variety of sports teams because it isn’t as competitive. They are maybe more middle to top of the pack because they aren’t in a competitive academic environment. and as others have pointed out, there is a higher chance of getting into more competitive/elite universities.

There isn’t a higher chance of getting into a more competitive university because most kids in those environments will have been challenged less and will end up with lower scores and less impressive achievements by the time they apply to college.

That’s generally understood in real life, which is why people seek out the top K-12 schools.

please don’t speak about things you know nothing about. All you have to do is take a look at the colleges and universities the graduates from ALL of the high schools in FCPS attend. And this just reflects the school the student chose and not all the schools they got accepted into.

You know nothing about any of these individual students and what their capabilities are.

We do know about some of their capabilities, or at least accomplishments, as they are far less frequently recognized for academic achievements.

Which is why certain groups will soon be pushing to abolish attendance boundaries in Fairfax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High SES status is an advantage, not the disadvantage posited in the OP.

One advantage it affords is the ability to send one's kids to schools where the main focus isn't merely getting kids to pass SOLs and graduate, which tends to drag down all the students and keep top students from reaching their full potential.

PP knows this, which is why they argued for "balancing" the wealth and poverty at different schools, a form of overt social engineering that FCPS eschews despite its occasional left-leaning rhetoric.

Almost all differences relate back to wealth or lack of wealth.

Assuming this to be true, one of these differences is the differences in school cultures.

Few believe that, as a general proposition, if you take two kids from families with similar financial resources, the one attending a lower SES school will fare better. There may be exceptions, of course. But you're tilting at windmills if you want to claim higher SES people are behaving irrationally when it comes to selecting school pyramids.

Bad culture is a product of poverty. Low SES schools are dealing with the byproducts of poverty which can spiral into all kinds of issues.

I'm not so certain that poverty alone ties into bad culture. After all, so far this year, I've gotten a notice of a student overdose death at WSHS, as well as a gun incident involving WSHS and LBSS students that resulted in strict screening for all football games.

I wasn't aware that poverty was a problem at WSHS or LBSS, but there are issues there regardless.

Let’s not become irrational. Even wealthy private schools have some discipline issues. But concentrations of poverty are tied to higher crime, etc. If you think WSHS and LBSS have bad cultures you should send your kid to Herndon.

Says someone who has clearly never set foot in Herndon or Justice or any other school that gets trashed on this board regularly. The culture at these schools is not really that different from anywhere else in FCPS. There is a bit of a "school within a school" environment, but those seeking a high SES culture/experience can certainly find it within any FCPS school.

The only people who trash these schools regularly on these forums are the dumdums who advocate to change boundaries. They talk about how pathetic these schools are and how necessary it is to bring in the saviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High SES status is an advantage, not the disadvantage posited in the OP.

One advantage it affords is the ability to send one's kids to schools where the main focus isn't merely getting kids to pass SOLs and graduate, which tends to drag down all the students and keep top students from reaching their full potential.

PP knows this, which is why they argued for "balancing" the wealth and poverty at different schools, a form of overt social engineering that FCPS eschews despite its occasional left-leaning rhetoric.

Almost all differences relate back to wealth or lack of wealth.

Assuming this to be true, one of these differences is the differences in school cultures.

Few believe that, as a general proposition, if you take two kids from families with similar financial resources, the one attending a lower SES school will fare better. There may be exceptions, of course. But you're tilting at windmills if you want to claim higher SES people are behaving irrationally when it comes to selecting school pyramids.

Bad culture is a product of poverty. Low SES schools are dealing with the byproducts of poverty which can spiral into all kinds of issues.

I'm not so certain that poverty alone ties into bad culture. After all, so far this year, I've gotten a notice of a student overdose death at WSHS, as well as a gun incident involving WSHS and LBSS students that resulted in strict screening for all football games.

I wasn't aware that poverty was a problem at WSHS or LBSS, but there are issues there regardless.

Let’s not become irrational. Even wealthy private schools have some discipline issues. But concentrations of poverty are tied to higher crime, etc. If you think WSHS and LBSS have bad cultures you should send your kid to Herndon.

Says someone who has clearly never set foot in Herndon or Justice or any other school that gets trashed on this board regularly. The culture at these schools is not really that different from anywhere else in FCPS. There is a bit of a "school within a school" environment, but those seeking a high SES culture/experience can certainly find it within any FCPS school.

The only people who trash these schools regularly on these forums are the dumdums who advocate to change boundaries. They talk about how pathetic these schools are and how necessary it is to bring in the saviors.

Then you would send your kid to any school, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries.

Colleges aren't looking at what trophies are sitting on a school's shelf. They're looking at a student's individual achievements.

It doesn't matter that a school has 20 all-state band players; it matters what YOUR does child do on the band? If your child one of 45 clarinet players on the marching band field? Or is your child part of the leadership team on the band, and has been since sophomore year?

And yes, maybe your child is the top clarinet player on the band, first out of 45 players. That's great! But that also means 44 players are just supporting players at that school, and they won't have as strong a college application.

If you play things by cold, hard numbers, your child's chances of building a strong college application are harder at a larger, higher SES school with more competition.

[Anonymous]

I went to bad schools K-12 (yes elementary middle and high schools were all horrible). It did give me an advantage in college admissions but that’s basically the only advantage.

It was a terrible experience otherwise. K-8 was a joke, I remembered being bored all the time. High school was better I got into a selective program a “school within a school” type of environment but that was only part of the day. The other part of my day was spent in classes with lots of disruptions and students who didn’t do any work. It wasn’t the teache

[Anonymous]

Accidentally posted prior to finishing my reply.

It wasn’t the teachers who were bad, they were mostly very good and cared about the kids. But the environment sucked.

I got into good colleges but I wasted many years of my life. Education should not be defined by college acceptances. I think a lot of parents understand this and they will try to get their kids into the best schools regardless of “higher competition.” I haven’t seen any parent try to get their kids into bad schools.

Although I will say plenty of kids will succeed even coming out from horrible schools. Some of my classmates did fine in college and grad school. The school doesn’t determine where a student will eventually get to.

But given a choice I would never choose to send my kids to a lower-performing school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It's not lost on colleges when the big fish are swimming in small ponds. The advanced band/orchestra never places many kids in all-state band or orchestra. The varsity sports teams struggle to field teams and have losing seasons. The kids struggle to find enough peers to sustain interest clubs. The primary drama at the school is not successful plays so much as daily chaos in the school hallways.

The irony is that some parents at these lower-achieving schools are desperate to have you believe (falsely) that their kids have an advantage in getting into competitive colleges, yet claim that secondary schools where kids are both held to higher expectations and challenge one another to excel are "cut-throat" and best avoided.

This thread isn't based in reality, but instead just another way for people to express their resentment and blow off some steam. That's apparent from the concurrent thread where a delusional poster claims that FCPS will soon abolish all school boundaries.

Colleges aren't looking at what trophies are sitting on a school's shelf. They're looking at a student's individual achievements.

It doesn't matter that a school has 20 all-state band players; it matters what YOUR does child do on the band? If your child one of 45 clarinet players on the marching band field? Or is your child part of the leadership team on the band, and has been since sophomore year?

And yes, maybe your child is the top clarinet player on the band, first out of 45 players. That's great! But that also means 44 players are just supporting players at that school, and they won't have as strong a college application.

If you play things by cold, hard numbers, your child's chances of building a strong college application are harder at a larger, higher SES school with more competition.

That’s the point. An individual student’s accomplishments are less likely to be impressive by the time they are applying to college when they’ve come up through a mediocre pyramid. They’ve spent years being treated like they were exceptional when in fact they were only above average. This is illustrated by the very small number of NMSFs and Commended Students in the lowest rated FCPS schools, year after year.

Sure, there are a few outliers, but there’s a reason for the adage that “the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire.”

If attending a low-performing school truly provided a competitive advantage, you’d see the parents most intent on their kids attending a top school flock to the likes of Annandale, Justice, or Herndon. The exact opposite is what happens - in particular, the Asian enrollment is increasing rapidly at Langley and plunging in some of the lowest rated schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of getting into the advanced band/orchestra earlier in the high school career, and thus receive the higher GPA boost.

People at lower SES schools have a greater chance of making the varsity sports teams earlier.

People at lower SES schools have a chance at obtaining leadership positions in sports and music. They have a greater chance at starring roles in drama.

Those are all things that look great on a college application.

Competition is fierce at the higher SES schools for leadership positions, sports teams, and music programs. On top of having to juggle an advanced academics course. Some kids thrive in that kind of cut-throat environment. Some kids don't.

It all evens out. My kid is at a high SES school and a friend is at a low SES school. They know each other from club sports. It’s true, it is much easier to make the sports team at the low SES school. At her friend’s school, club players easily made JV or varsity in 9th grade while at our school club players were competing for spots on the freshman team.

But there are other opportunities besides sports at our school and even more opportunities at our school that they don’t even have that their school. We have so many ECs.