How many more engineering and CS majors do we need?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems like that’s all kids are majoring in. Many without the passion for it. Both fields are oversaturated with a lot of kids having no business being in these programs. Can we get a pendulum swing and have a push into humanities and trade schools?

Those denigrating CS and engineering majors ( and trying to be the arbiters of who should be in these programs), don’t have the aptitude to major in such field much less comment on them.

STFU

You do know there's people who major in engineering and CS who don't think it's the pinnacle of intelligence to get a bachelors degree in STEM, right? People are rightfully identifying a change in student choices.

[Anonymous]

Engineering is one of the toughest majors. The work is rigorous and so those who pursue it must be smart, dedicated and hardworking. Upon graduation, there are many choices of different fields to work in. Not sure why we’d encourage students to not study the field. I also agree CS is over saturated but that’s a different issue and I’d far rather my kid study CS then sociology or art history if CS was what they wanted to study.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the discussion everyone. I like hearing the differing ideas. I changed my mind on some of my previous notions. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like that’s all kids are majoring in. Many without the passion for it. Both fields are oversaturated with a lot of kids having no business being in these programs. Can we get a pendulum swing and have a push into humanities and trade schools?

Trade schools?

Trump and MAGA want to give the money they rob from Harvard to trade schools. Interesting idea. But again he is just a lunatic I don’t know how this will end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

It's actually surprising how little you need to do a CS major at these schools.

Williams: one math course (Discrete), intro course/intro data structures, two core courses (only one in algorithms), and 3 electives...that is hardly a CS degree. That is just baby software engineering bootcamp; you might even learn more in a boot camp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I spent 3 days correcting the work of a well known and established licensed plumbing outfit in Chevy Chase.
I suspect if some of those CS majors did the job, I would not have needed to buy a torch, butane can, some copper pipes and spend hours watching videos on sweating copper. Physical labor also requires an exacting mindset. The plumber was paid quite well yet they were sloppy.
People should not look down on physical trade work. They are quite respected in some European countries with strict education requirements and qualifications. But here in the US, the trades have been tarnished by bottom of the barrel sub sub contracted labor, mostly cheaply compensated immigrants. And so the expectations and delivery are low.

The trades like plumbing and electricians are controlled by the unions. You can't get certified as a plumber without doing an apprenticeship. The apprenticeships are only offered through the union. They control the supply of those entering the field. I'm not saying they are holding people back -- I think right now they are desperate -- just that there is a screening process and not anyone can just join.

The sub-contracted labor is not certified, but they did have a certified master plumber sign off on it, as you can't get a permit otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

It's actually surprising how little you need to do a CS major at these schools.

Williams: one math course (Discrete), intro course/intro data structures, two core courses (only one in algorithms), and 3 electives...that is hardly a CS degree. That is just baby software engineering bootcamp; you might even learn more in a boot camp.

I have a CS degree from a top 5 school. For Williams, the requirements are here:
https://csci.williams.edu/patterns-of-course-elections/

I agree the required courses are a little light, but 3 electives are required from this list:
https://csci.williams.edu/electives/

One or two of those is not that intense (digital design; computational biology) but the rest are all hard-core, like Operating Systems, Compiler Design, Distributed Systems.

The only way I'd make this more intense it to require 2 CS courses per semester, not 1. I was doing 2-3 CS courses per semester in my senior year. It was intense, but worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

It's actually surprising how little you need to do a CS major at these schools.

Williams: one math course (Discrete), intro course/intro data structures, two core courses (only one in algorithms), and 3 electives...that is hardly a CS degree. That is just baby software engineering bootcamp; you might even learn more in a boot camp.

I have a CS degree from a top 5 school. For Williams, the requirements are here:
https://csci.williams.edu/patterns-of-course-elections/

I agree the required courses are a little light, but 3 electives are required from this list:
https://csci.williams.edu/electives/

One or two of those is not that intense (digital design; computational biology) but the rest are all hard-core, like Operating Systems, Compiler Design, Distributed Systems.

The only way I'd make this more intense it to require 2 CS courses per semester, not 1. I was doing 2-3 CS courses per semester in my senior year. It was intense, but worth it.

Also a software engineer/DP, and I'm just surprised, because I had to do a lot more coursework for a CS degree. Is this normal across LACs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

It's actually surprising how little you need to do a CS major at these schools.

Williams: one math course (Discrete), intro course/intro data structures, two core courses (only one in algorithms), and 3 electives...that is hardly a CS degree. That is just baby software engineering bootcamp; you might even learn more in a boot camp.

A CS degree from Williams sounds good to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems like that’s all kids are majoring in. Many without the passion for it. Both fields are oversaturated with a lot of kids having no business being in these programs. Can we get a pendulum swing and have a push into humanities and trade schools?

Pay shit ton of $$$ and major in humanities ??

+1 You can make bank, OP. It's something young people need to consider.

[Anonymous]

I’m OP and have been commenting throughout the thread. I have to remember that the uptick in enrollment is the equal access to education now which is something I support. Truly middle class family and my only child is studying humanities because she can’t stand STEM. She has economic worries for pursuing her passion rather than making money. The world is more than my daughter and not every student has the luxury to major in whatever they’d like, especially with the economy being uncertain. With over 3000 colleges and universities in the US there will be some dud programs. But, some people only have access to programs that may not be the best. And it’s their way to social mobilize. Again, thanks everyone for the discussion. My DD did look into trade school for cosmetology but comes from a college educated family and does enjoy her subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I spent 3 days correcting the work of a well known and established licensed plumbing outfit in Chevy Chase.
I suspect if some of those CS majors did the job, I would not have needed to buy a torch, butane can, some copper pipes and spend hours watching videos on sweating copper. Physical labor also requires an exacting mindset. The plumber was paid quite well yet they were sloppy.
People should not look down on physical trade work. They are quite respected in some European countries with strict education requirements and qualifications. But here in the US, the trades have been tarnished by bottom of the barrel sub sub contracted labor, mostly cheaply compensated immigrants. And so the expectations and delivery are low.

The trades like plumbing and electricians are controlled by the unions. You can't get certified as a plumber without doing an apprenticeship. The apprenticeships are only offered through the union. They control the supply of those entering the field. I'm not saying they are holding people back -- I think right now they are desperate -- just that there is a screening process and not anyone can just join.

The sub-contracted labor is not certified, but they did have a certified master plumber sign off on it, as you can't get a permit otherwise.

Virginia is a Right To Work state, so the unions do not control access to trade jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

It's actually surprising how little you need to do a CS major at these schools.

Williams: one math course (Discrete), intro course/intro data structures, two core courses (only one in algorithms), and 3 electives...that is hardly a CS degree. That is just baby software engineering bootcamp; you might even learn more in a boot camp.

I have a CS degree from a top 5 school. For Williams, the requirements are here:
https://csci.williams.edu/patterns-of-course-elections/

I agree the required courses are a little light, but 3 electives are required from this list:
https://csci.williams.edu/electives/

One or two of those is not that intense (digital design; computational biology) but the rest are all hard-core, like Operating Systems, Compiler Design, Distributed Systems.

The only way I'd make this more intense it to require 2 CS courses per semester, not 1. I was doing 2-3 CS courses per semester in my senior year. It was intense, but worth it.

Also a software engineer/DP, and I'm just surprised, because I had to do a lot more coursework for a CS degree. Is this normal across LACs?

It varies, but the minimal requirements CS degrees are not unusual at Small LACs where CS grew out of the Math Department.

This became an issue at the university where I did my CS Master’s degree. That university eventually instituted mandatory “placement exams” for all incoming grad students. Any student who did not do sufficiently well on a particular section of the placement exam was told to take the corresponding undergrad course before starting any related graduate course. It did the affected students a favor, because they were unlikely to survive the graduate course due to lack of foundational knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Engineering and CS majors can work in many industries including going to law school and taking jobs at investment banks, no need for them to be humanities majors

They don’t often have the other soft skills necessary to complete those jobs though. So they would never be hired to begin with.

Actually, engineering majors are often the best read and most empathetic kids you'll meet these days. Because they are smart and they are curious. At my kid's top 20 school, the engineering majors are highly recruited by MBB and Wall Street. So I think your assumptions are very dated. It's not 1987 anymore. The smart kids aren't going into history or political science or other soft majors these days. Engineering is vacuuming a lot of the talent now. Whether it's the right fit for everyone is a different discussion. I would never encourage anyone who doesn't have the aptitude and discipline to choose engineering. It is a very tough major everywhere.

No need to overdo it. The big reason so many students are majoring in STEM is the shift by institutions to make STEM accessible. CS, particularly, has been softened to play-doh at many institutions and you can coast through a degree with the hardest math class maybe being an application-based linear algebra course. Smart kids still major in any and everything, and there's many social science students going into banking/finance and consulting.

+1, look at the top LACs where CS is almost eclipsing Econ for the lazy mans degree. It just isn't as difficult as other STEM degrees and doesn't weed as many students out. Physics could pay you $300k starting salary right out of college and hardly any would make it through still.

A BS Physics degree rarely rarely would pay so much fresh out of school. Exceptions surely exist, but that is quite far from being a typical, median, or mean starting salary for a BS Physics degree.

[Anonymous]

CS minor is the way to go..