Law school applications

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My ds is applying but doesn't really want to "practice law". He is more interested in international relations and business.

Then don't go to law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

PP here. I was not trying to say there was a boost. My comment was in direct response to this claim: "It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own."

We also learn how to read very carefully in law school. Useful skill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

PP here. I was not trying to say there was a boost. My comment was in direct response to this claim: "It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own."

We also learn how to read very carefully in law school. Useful skill.

And ... we learn to understand context in law school. Which requires that you "learn to read very carefully." Which apparently you did not. The first sentence in the OP asks about getting a "boost." This entire discussion is about the potential for a boost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

When Yale law used to publish these stats it showed nearly 15% of Yale law school went to Yale undergrad.

And how many Yale grad applicants did they get?

I don’t know…but having 15% come from Yale undergrad when overall acceptance rate is 5% means that 90 Yale undergrads are at Yale law…so let’s call it at most 1800 applied which would be nearly 36% of all of the relevant Yale undergrads (ie 3/4 of Yale undergrads) applying to Yale law school (I don’t believe anywhere near 36% of Yale undergrads apply to law school in general…but that data doesn’t exist).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

PP here. I was not trying to say there was a boost. My comment was in direct response to this claim: "It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own."

We also learn how to read very carefully in law school. Useful skill.

And ... we learn to understand context in law school. Which requires that you "learn to read very carefully." Which apparently you did not. The first sentence in the OP asks about getting a "boost." This entire discussion is about the potential for a boost.

Ahh the old attempt to double down when you know you already screwed up and lost. That doesn't usually end well either, but that's more of on the job learning, not a skill taught in law school. Of course, some never learn. What can you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

PP here. I was not trying to say there was a boost. My comment was in direct response to this claim: "It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own."

We also learn how to read very carefully in law school. Useful skill.

And ... we learn to understand context in law school. Which requires that you "learn to read very carefully." Which apparently you did not. The first sentence in the OP asks about getting a "boost." This entire discussion is about the potential for a boost.

Ahh the old attempt to double down when you know you already screwed up and lost. That doesn't usually end well either, but that's more of on the job learning, not a skill taught in law school. Of course, some never learn. What can you do.

Lol. Whatever you say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No back door.

You need the stats and you need to convince them that you really want to be in law school. Lots of NYU undergrads will apply.

You also need to have a compelling story and be unique in some way. They don’t want a class full of UMC white suburban kids. They want a diverse class in every way.

It’s tough out there. My Phi Beta Kappa/174 kid never even got a response from their NYU law school application and was waitlisted or rejected from every other T13 they applied to.

Something must have been missing from his application file.

Nope. If they had worked a few years and then applied, that would have helped. But seriously, this is how hard it is right now. Ended up with nearly a full ride at a very good (but not T14) school, but people need to stop assuming that T10 is all about numbers. Law school admissions are just as holistic as undergrad now.

Might also depend on when in the cycle he applied. If he applied this cycle and later into it, most of these seats were probably taken. If he applied early and still no dice, I do suspect something was missing or off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

When Yale law used to publish these stats it showed nearly 15% of Yale law school went to Yale undergrad.

And how many Yale grad applicants did they get?

I don’t know…but having 15% come from Yale undergrad when overall acceptance rate is 5% means that 90 Yale undergrads are at Yale law…so let’s call it at most 1800 applied which would be nearly 36% of all of the relevant Yale undergrads (ie 3/4 of Yale undergrads) applying to Yale law school (I don’t believe anywhere near 36% of Yale undergrads apply to law school in general…but that data doesn’t exist).

Whoever is arguing with you here should be a lawyer themselves if they aren’t one already because they obviously just like to argue for the hell of it. It is both counterintuitive and not supported by publicly available data - even if merely anecdotal - that law schools don’t favor their own undergraduates, at least on the margin, when it comes to admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

When Yale law used to publish these stats it showed nearly 15% of Yale law school went to Yale undergrad.

And how many Yale grad applicants did they get?

I don’t know…but having 15% come from Yale undergrad when overall acceptance rate is 5% means that 90 Yale undergrads are at Yale law…so let’s call it at most 1800 applied which would be nearly 36% of all of the relevant Yale undergrads (ie 3/4 of Yale undergrads) applying to Yale law school (I don’t believe anywhere near 36% of Yale undergrads apply to law school in general…but that data doesn’t exist).

Whoever is arguing with you here should be a lawyer themselves if they aren’t one already because they obviously just like to argue for the hell of it. It is both counterintuitive and not supported by publicly available data - even if merely anecdotal - that law schools don’t favor their own undergraduates, at least on the margin, when it comes to admissions.

No one said "law schools don't favor their own undergraduates." The fact that admission to a law school at the uni where one did their undergrad can be harder than admission at comparable schools is not the same thing as "law schools don't favor their own undergraduates." They can favor those applicants and it can still be a tougher admit for those applicants, depending on how many apply. This isn't complicated and is understood by everyone in law school admissions and by most applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No back door.

You need the stats and you need to convince them that you really want to be in law school. Lots of NYU undergrads will apply.

You also need to have a compelling story and be unique in some way. They don’t want a class full of UMC white suburban kids. They want a diverse class in every way.

It’s tough out there. My Phi Beta Kappa/174 kid never even got a response from their NYU law school application and was waitlisted or rejected from every other T13 they applied to.

Something must have been missing from his application file.

Yeah something was missing. My kid and his ivy 2023 peers all got into T14 and many got T5s, with 0-1 year off, all had 3.8+ but none were phi beta kappa.

I don’t know what to tell you. Nothing was “missing”. Maybe the fact that your kids went to an Ivy was a boost.

From an earlier response, it appears that your DC was applying directly from undergraduate. A gap year is what was "missing." Law schools want applicants take at least a one year gap, preferably two. I asked the Dean of my t-14 about it and the quote was "It is not absolutely mandatory, but it is strongly, strongly encouraged." About 90% of Yale Law students were one year out from undergrad and 46% were at least three years out when admitted. This is a change from when I went to law school, but it's real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can actually make it harder if lots of undergrad alums are applying. Law schools value diversity of undergrad institution, so they they don't tend to admit a lot of folks from any one undergrad, including their own.

I don't think this is true at all. Undergrads from the same university were heavily represented at my T14 law school.

It just depends on how big the class is and how many apply. Just because "undergrads from the same university were heavily represented" at your law school doesn't necessarily mean there is a "boost" for admission purposes -- you would have to look at the numbers to know whether there was a boost or the opposite. If a smaller law school aims for a 1L class of about 200, and they value diversity of undergrad institution, and 50 from that particular law school's undergad institution apply -- it can happen that some of those folks are rejected even though they have better stats than some of the folks who are admitted. With a large 1L class, and not a huge number of folks from the undergrad applying, will they get a "boost"? Most likely, yes. It all depends.

But it certainly can make it harder. Sometimes much harder.

When Yale law used to publish these stats it showed nearly 15% of Yale law school went to Yale undergrad.

And how many Yale grad applicants did they get?

I don’t know…but having 15% come from Yale undergrad when overall acceptance rate is 5% means that 90 Yale undergrads are at Yale law…so let’s call it at most 1800 applied which would be nearly 36% of all of the relevant Yale undergrads (ie 3/4 of Yale undergrads) applying to Yale law school (I don’t believe anywhere near 36% of Yale undergrads apply to law school in general…but that data doesn’t exist).

Whoever is arguing with you here should be a lawyer themselves if they aren’t one already because they obviously just like to argue for the hell of it. It is both counterintuitive and not supported by publicly available data - even if merely anecdotal - that law schools don’t favor their own undergraduates, at least on the margin, when it comes to admissions.

No one said "law schools don't favor their own undergraduates." The fact that admission to a law school at the uni where one did their undergrad can be harder than admission at comparable schools is not the same thing as "law schools don't favor their own undergraduates." They can favor those applicants and it can still be a tougher admit for those applicants, depending on how many apply. This isn't complicated and is understood by everyone in law school admissions and by most applicants.

Except the “depending how many apply” and their percentage of their own law school never match up.

So…while it’s not complicated…it’s also fairly empirically evident that you have a far higher likelihood of acceptance if you went for undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No back door.

You need the stats and you need to convince them that you really want to be in law school. Lots of NYU undergrads will apply.

You also need to have a compelling story and be unique in some way. They don’t want a class full of UMC white suburban kids. They want a diverse class in every way.

It’s tough out there. My Phi Beta Kappa/174 kid never even got a response from their NYU law school application and was waitlisted or rejected from every other T13 they applied to.

Something must have been missing from his application file.

Yeah something was missing. My kid and his ivy 2023 peers all got into T14 and many got T5s, with 0-1 year off, all had 3.8+ but none were phi beta kappa.

I don’t know what to tell you. Nothing was “missing”. Maybe the fact that your kids went to an Ivy was a boost.

From an earlier response, it appears that your DC was applying directly from undergraduate. A gap year is what was "missing." Law schools want applicants take at least a one year gap, preferably two. I asked the Dean of my t-14 about it and the quote was "It is not absolutely mandatory, but it is strongly, strongly encouraged." About 90% of Yale Law students were one year out from undergrad and 46% were at least three years out when admitted. This is a change from when I went to law school, but it's real.

Many who take a gap year between undergraduate school & law school do so to increase their LSAT score & improve their personal statement.