Why hasn't GMU surpassed UVA, W&M, VT?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone give a summary of why people are saying it's republican/trumpy?

Because it went through a period of time in the 90s and 00s where it became a home for quite a few conservative academics, particularly in the econ department. And then that attracted some conservative students, etc etc.

They also have the Antonin Scalia School of Law on campus, so…

You think you are SOOO smart dinging ASSLaw -- but it's NOT on the main campus. It's in Arlington.

(And no, I wouldn't go to Scalia School of Law, but my HS senior IS going to GMU for CS, so I don't appreciate people pooping on GMU when they don't know what they are saying.)

I probably wouldn’t use the term pooping when discussing ASSLaw but that’s just me.

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is that GMU can still be an excellent school that is "better" than a ton of schools (however one chooses to measure that) while still being "not as good as" UVA, W&M, and VT, which are all incredible schools.

We are just so obsessed with the top few schools that we don't realize that there are a ton of great schools out there.

You might not get a direct path to a hedge fund or Harvard med school from GMU, but you will likely emerge with a solid degree and a solid degree. If my kid's teacher was a GMU grad, I would not be upset. And being a teacher is a pretty important, secure line of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Where they receive it is rather moot.

It all depends on your goals and ambition. Fair or not, some employers simply don't consider candidates from what they deem "lesser" schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look at the number of Nobel prizes it won - it's more than the rest of the State combined. It's a world class university for blue collar workers .

GMU has won zero Nobel prizes. Buchanan won when he was at UVA and years later became GMU professor. Smith received the award while he was at George Mason, but it was for work He had done at Arizona.

And the Mason hater; both were part of the faculty when they won at GMU.

VA Tech people cry for not keeping Buchanan and Arizona for Smith; If you were a student of either when they won the Nobel Prize it was at GMU.

And don't forget Supreme Court Justices becoming visiting professors at GMU Law - who cares about ideology? You land a clerk position then you are set for life. Do you get that at the slightly higher ranked Law Schools?

And a few Pulitzer Prize winners. A number which is within reach of UVA and W&M. Please don't bring up Poe - that was before GMU was even an idea.

Cry some more that your elite wine drinking snooty school hasn't destroyed the beer drinking blue collar working school. You think it's still an "only commuter school" or something more?

Ummm. I think conflating law school and undergrad education is a mistake. I also think the law school may attract far right judges since it changed its name. And that could be cool. But you aren’t getting a clerkship with anyone but Thomas, and even then, you’d need to be strongly federalist society. And there is a lot of extra backstory with the woman from GMU who clerked for him. She made news for being ethically problematic (to put it mildly). But there was more to the story. She lived with Thomas for a while, knew his wife, they mentored her, encourage her to attend law school. She was unusual circumstances. In general, GMU is not a SCOTUS clerkship pipeline.

There is a big world of extremely prestigious clerkships below SCOTUS. It is like only focusing on HYP for college. Trump appointed a lot of federal judges below SCOTUS. And a lot of these judges are hiring clerks from GMU. Here's an article from a few years ago. 10-15 years ago I would be shocked if they got one a year. Though I will admit that it is ironic that Kagan is featured in this article. I'm still fairly sure the vast majority of the clerks are for Republican-appointed judges.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/news/2021/lucky_21

Interesting. The article reports 21 federal clerkships in 2021, which seems high. Too high, so I checked. And when you look at the report to the ABA for 2021 (see link above), which must be accurate for accreditation purposes, they only reported to the ABA that 12 class of 2021 students headed into federal clerkships that year. And in fact, the number has fluctuated between 8 and 15 for each class 2019-2024. Which is about what I would expect, since there aren’t a ton of federalist society feeders (I mean, Ivy with demonstrated federalist bona fides kids are ideal, but not most of the class. GMU is unusual in that the school serves as a federalist society pipeline. The other one is probably Liberty). It’s actually smart positioning by GMU. But also, some went to Judges no highly qualified grad would clerk for because the a Judge is toxic to future career prospects. Aileen Cannon had her current clerks and the next years clerks quit over her Trumplove.

Anyway, 12 vs 21 is a big difference, not one kid dropped out/changed their mind. I genuinely wonder why the discrepancy? I was a federal law clerk for four years for a judge who believed in “career clerks” who had previous work experience out of law school (reality is it wasn’t really a career and 4-5 years was about average tenure for him). Mine was a BigLaw to Mommy track move, which was also typical for him. And it’s pretty black or white. You are or you aren’t. My guess is only 12 students secured clerkships in 2021, and the rest are class of 2020 grads on two year stints and/or class of 2020 clerks who move up (District to Appellate) or over to a different judge on the same Court, and they are counting all alums in clerkships at that point (including people like me, who hired and retained for efficiency rather than serving as a short term launching pad). I’m giving GMU the benefit of the doubt here because article says they have started or will start a clerkship, and refers to students and alumni. It seems to count all active clerks, and not just 2021 grads.

They do have one specific District Judge who hires from them and serves as a feeder to Thomas. It’s great bragging rights for the school if they say “we get SCOTUS clerks” and but not that this is a unique situation and, it’s hard to see it continuing once Thomas retires. Especially since this years GMU Thomas clerk had a really messy racist background, was enmeshed with the Thomas family (“almost their daughter,” helped his wife run her business, etc) before she attended GMU, and went to law school and GMU at Thomas’s urging (interesting, because Thomas has the pull to get her into almost any law school in the country and has zero problem using his pull as a Justice for profit). She got a ton of bad press when her clerkship was announced. Interesting read (gift link). I remember it because law clerks need to beyond reproach and should definitely been seen but not heard/known of. They are Hatch Act greater restricted, and the ethos everything you do, on the clock or off, reflects on your judge. So this situation (her texts include saying “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”) really stood you. If that’s the case here, then YOW. From that standpoint, she is toxic and should have been blackballed but all Judges, federal, state and local.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/us/politics/clarence-thomas-crystal-clanton-clerk.html?unlocked_article_code=1.804.WXWa.ThLuicrv6CdV&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

In the long run, cr@p like this and the association with Thomas and his questionable ethics will probably hurt the school more than they help.

Other than that, their hiring profile is about what I would expect. Some BigLaw, but mostly a mix of small to medium firms, business and government. It’s a regional law school and most of the class stays in VA, MD or DC. Middle of the pack law school plus Clarence Thomas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No.

The PP said that the Scalia Law school was on campus to suggest that the campus is very conservative.

Factually incorrect that Scalia Law school is on the GMU campus. And Factually incorrect that GMU has a conservative feel.

i mean, neither of these are facts. The law school is by definition a GMU campus. And individual students in various departments, grad schools, etc will likely find it more or less conservative. You can’t “factually incorrect” a vibe, especially at a school this large that does have multiple campuses.

More to the point, why does it matter in a discussion of undergrad rankings whether ASSLaw is in Fairfax or Arlington? And why are you so invested in the school not having a “conservative feel”. Is there something wrong with that. Wake Forest has a conservative feel in some ways. I’m an alum and that’s a fair observation. So ???

[Anonymous]

As a NOVA family, GMU holds zero appeal to my HSers. They would rather go to a lower tier school and get the "real" college experience than stay up here. I can't say I blame them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The only thing holding GMU back is the quality of its teaching staff. Most undergrads dont care about research - they go to learn coding, accounting, business etc.

For business, I know GMU hires random folks who teach part time at GMU. Just does not inspire confidence.

Its location/size is not an issues - most colleges in Europe, Asia are similar in that regards.

But not in the United States. GMU is a commuter college that the Kock brothers have essentially purchased.

? If NoVa is full of liberals, and supposedly, most of the students are from NoVa area, how does that make GMU conservative?

Are most students from NOVA? I haven’t seen the numbers. If they are, then I’d imagine the NOVA students trend MC/LMC or nontraditional students. UMC students who can afford to leave NOVA by and large do. The UMC kids I know had GMU as the best STEM option or crushed and burned at their initial college (in two cases had mental health issues) and transferred to live at or near home and get more structure and more supports.

IDK but some posters seem to think that GMU is mostly a commuter school, so the students would have to live in NoVa.

[Anonymous]

I have a kid there.

The issues are:

A) No football
B) Fairfax is too wealthy and snooty. Anything that remotely indicates college town fun gets a big side eye from the community
C) No college town, dive bar fun area anywhere around (see B)
And
D) Fairfax is a big urbanish wealthy suburb with no community spirit for the school, none, nada, zip. Unlike the small towns of Charlottesville, Williamsburg, etc where the college is the main hub of the town.


The campus is nice, the programs are very good, there are so many opportunities based on proximity to DC. The dorms are nice and campus is full.

The main issues are no football and no support/spirit from Fairfax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a NOVA family, GMU holds zero appeal to my HSers. They would rather go to a lower tier school and get the "real" college experience than stay up here. I can't say I blame them.

That's a wealthy person's view. For the rest of us, college is more about career outcomes rather than the college "experience", which is just a bonus.

My very high stats DC said they'd go to whichever college with the best program in their field that accepted them. That happened to be our in state, about 30min away. They got merit and doing very well there - going on their second internship this summer paying pretty well.

We don't have family money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid there.

The issues are:

A) No football
B) Fairfax is too wealthy and snooty. Anything that remotely indicates college town fun gets a big side eye from the community
C) No college town, dive bar fun area anywhere around (see B)
And
D) Fairfax is a big urbanish wealthy suburb with no community spirit for the school, none, nada, zip. Unlike the small towns of Charlottesville, Williamsburg, etc where the college is the main hub of the town.


The campus is nice, the programs are very good, there are so many opportunities based on proximity to DC. The dorms are nice and campus is full.

The main issues are no football and no support/spirit from Fairfax.

To me GMU is the scrappy guy who works their way up the food chain. Solid education but not as much of the typical college experience.

Academically, I think it's better than JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:GMU's problem is that it is in the backyard of most NOVA kids and who wants that for college? Kids should spread their wings. Otherwise, a better option than some other publics.

This. UVA, VT, WM and even JMU (and depending on what your kid is studying VCU) are more attractive to a large cohort of high performing kids because they don’t want to live 2, or even 20, miles from Mom and Dad during college. And are blasé about being a metro ride away from DC, because they grew up with it. There are two niches they fill that gets high performing NOVA kids in the door: those who are strong and STEM but miss admission to VT engineering/CS and those who have severe budget constraints/family obligations and for whom living at home is a financial or practical need.

I would like to see GMU do more with IR/politics, etc, given they do shuttle to the Vienna metro. They could be appealing as an in state option for kids who want the proximity to DC for school year internships. I wish they had a formal program where kids from other VA state schools could live there (and avoid DC housing costs), intern, take a class, and transfer credit back to their VA state school. If it was easy and they helped find DC internships, my kid might have considered that. I’m sure you can apply to be a visiting student, find your own internship from scratch or through your “base” school. But schools like American have formal programs for this and are much more seamless.

And I hate to say it about a state school but— they will rise in the rankings when they act like Pitt and actively recruit/ award merit to OOS kids for whom the location is a plus.

GMU Global Affairs did a project with the state department this year. The students got to present to state.

[Anonymous]

I think of GMU as a cloistered rightwing protected zone. Would never think of sending my kids there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid there.

The issues are:

A) No football
B) Fairfax is too wealthy and snooty. Anything that remotely indicates college town fun gets a big side eye from the community
C) No college town, dive bar fun area anywhere around (see B)
And
D) Fairfax is a big urbanish wealthy suburb with no community spirit for the school, none, nada, zip. Unlike the small towns of Charlottesville, Williamsburg, etc where the college is the main hub of the town.


The campus is nice, the programs are very good, there are so many opportunities based on proximity to DC. The dorms are nice and campus is full.

The main issues are no football and no support/spirit from Fairfax.

To me GMU is the scrappy guy who works their way up the food chain. Solid education but not as much of the typical college experience.

Academically, I think it's better than JMU.

I agree that academically GMU is better than JMU.

GMU lacks the college football fun and community college town support, so it will always be less desirable to a significant portion of kids, until those 2 things change.

[Anonymous]

GMU is strong academically but lacks the rah-rah school spirit of other VA schools. GMU attracts a lot of 1st Gen, bright and hardworking students who don’t necessarily have the luxury of choosing party or social aspects over career opportunities. They will choose GMU over JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid there.

The issues are:

A) No football
B) Fairfax is too wealthy and snooty. Anything that remotely indicates college town fun gets a big side eye from the community
C) No college town, dive bar fun area anywhere around (see B)
And
D) Fairfax is a big urbanish wealthy suburb with no community spirit for the school, none, nada, zip. Unlike the small towns of Charlottesville, Williamsburg, etc where the college is the main hub of the town.


The campus is nice, the programs are very good, there are so many opportunities based on proximity to DC. The dorms are nice and campus is full.

The main issues are no football and no support/spirit from Fairfax.

To me GMU is the scrappy guy who works their way up the food chain. Solid education but not as much of the typical college experience.

Academically, I think it's better than JMU.

I agree that academically GMU is better than JMU.

GMU lacks the college football fun and community college town support, so it will always be less desirable to a significant portion of kids, until those 2 things change.

Do they not have a competitive football team? It's already known for other sport and is Division 1.