Declining education quality: too many admin staff and asst. principals

[Anonymous]

To reiterate what a PP asked, can non-teachers confirm for us whether adults in other jobs have to do these stupid "team building" meetings?

Take a look at what some teachers have described on this thread and let us know how many times you do this at your law firm, or Fed job, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To reiterate what a PP asked, can non-teachers confirm for us whether adults in other jobs have to do these stupid "team building" meetings?

Take a look at what some teachers have described on this thread and let us know how many times you do this at your law firm, or Fed job, etc.

I would like to know this, as well.

I’ve grown tired of sharing with my “elbow partner” and having administrators start meetings by saying “one-two-three, eyes on me!”

I have one administrator who gets it. She cancels meetings if they are purely informational, and just sends an email. When we do have to meet, there are no silly games and she respects our time. I value her more than I can express, and it’s clear she values teachers. Why can’t they all be like this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To reiterate what a PP asked, can non-teachers confirm for us whether adults in other jobs have to do these stupid "team building" meetings?

Take a look at what some teachers have described on this thread and let us know how many times you do this at your law firm, or Fed job, etc.

I'll bite.

25+ years in various STEM careers/positions (public and private sector) with lots of project "team" experience. Never done the first one.

One group, though, who had massive issues (the planners and landscape architects thought deadlines were guidelines and the engineers did not) had some day-long personality assessment and coaching but that's about as close to anything I can recall.

I can't imagine doing an "ice breaker" as an adult in a professional setting. That's what coffee and donuts before a meeting is for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To reiterate what a PP asked, can non-teachers confirm for us whether adults in other jobs have to do these stupid "team building" meetings?

Take a look at what some teachers have described on this thread and let us know how many times you do this at your law firm, or Fed job, etc.

I'll bite.

25+ years in various STEM careers/positions (public and private sector) with lots of project "team" experience. Never done the first one.

One group, though, who had massive issues (the planners and landscape architects thought deadlines were guidelines and the engineers did not) had some day-long personality assessment and coaching but that's about as close to anything I can recall.

I can't imagine doing an "ice breaker" as an adult in a professional setting. That's what coffee and donuts before a meeting is for.

+1. I'm a teacher married to an engineer who has been on various projects and teams for the past 25 years. His company does an optional trip once a year in a cool location that's focused on employee engagement. There are mini sessions on coaching and stuff but nothing like the stupid team building activities teachers are expected to do on a regular basis. They never have to "hold up the finger that corresponds with which squirrel you feel like" or "stop-clap-snap" at the beginning of meetings.

[Anonymous]

We do team building on zoom. The expectation is that you push the window to the background and do real work during the exercise

[Anonymous]

Every once in a while our principal does our monthly staff meeting on Zoom. It’s awesome because I can skip all of the stupid ice breakers and SEL crap because I’m driving.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I know I love graphs that don't cite their source and have unreadable labels!

Don’t take me long to find info:

https://oakmn.org/the-growth-in-school-administration-is-a-major-reason-why-we-need-school-choice/#:~:text=Instead%2C%20the%20growth%20in%20the,staff%20growing%20a%20whopping%2088%25!

Of course, it's the school choice MFers...

Er, your vulgar language aside, I assume you are referring to proponents of vouchers when you wrote “school choice” ?

Not sure that issue is at all relevant here.

The Minnesota based website that had the questionable graph posts articles on school choice only. They use the “school choice” language not “proponents of vouchers”. You should know that the terms are interchangeable.

That issue is very relevant. Their whole purpose is to put their children in religious schools and have the government foot the bill. They are not a credible source. And look who’s retweeting it.

DP. Are you questioning the accuracy of the information, or are you simply upset about its source?

This isn’t political to me. This is about a job that is so demanding that teachers are climbing over each other for a way out. Some quit. Some jump to admin, and then create work to justify their existence. It’s all in an effort to avoid the classroom.

So you don’t have to like the data. Many teachers are still going to tell you their experiences are aligned with that chart. Each year brings more admin, more tasks and projects to support the new admin, and more burned out teachers. Repeat. Repeat.

I automatically dismiss “facts” in articles with extreme bias either conservative or liberal. Their agenda is for the government to pay for their religious schools. They wouldn’t publish information that disputes it. They aren’t a news source.

None of us can speak for a whole nation of schools. I know our schools are doing fine. On the other hand my sister lives in a middle class suburb and we were discussing books my daughter is reading in 7th grade. My niece, who is graduating from college in May, told us that they watched the movies in 8th grade but didn’t read the books.

No, you don’t know if your schools are doing fine. Somebody can look at the schools I’ve worked in for years and thought they were “fine”, but they were being held together by teachers who go far beyond their contract requirements.

Your school isn’t sharing the behind-the-scenes chaos with you, so you don’t know which teacher lost their planning period for the 5th day in a row to subbing. You also don’t know which administrator made every teacher lose a valuable hour so the administrative pet project could get some attention.

They’re fine when it comes to the issues people are saying are happening at their schools. They are reading full books. They are learning grammar and spelling. It doesn’t look like they do anything differently than when I was in school academically. The biggest improvement in learning is computers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know I love graphs that don't cite their source and have unreadable labels!

Don’t take me long to find info:

https://oakmn.org/the-growth-in-school-administration-is-a-major-reason-why-we-need-school-choice/#:~:text=Instead%2C%20the%20growth%20in%20the,staff%20growing%20a%20whopping%2088%25!

Of course, it's the school choice MFers...

Er, your vulgar language aside, I assume you are referring to proponents of vouchers when you wrote “school choice” ?

Not sure that issue is at all relevant here.

The Minnesota based website that had the questionable graph posts articles on school choice only. They use the “school choice” language not “proponents of vouchers”. You should know that the terms are interchangeable.

That issue is very relevant. Their whole purpose is to put their children in religious schools and have the government foot the bill. They are not a credible source. And look who’s retweeting it.

DP. Are you questioning the accuracy of the information, or are you simply upset about its source?

This isn’t political to me. This is about a job that is so demanding that teachers are climbing over each other for a way out. Some quit. Some jump to admin, and then create work to justify their existence. It’s all in an effort to avoid the classroom.

So you don’t have to like the data. Many teachers are still going to tell you their experiences are aligned with that chart. Each year brings more admin, more tasks and projects to support the new admin, and more burned out teachers. Repeat. Repeat.

I automatically dismiss “facts” in articles with extreme bias either conservative or liberal. Their agenda is for the government to pay for their religious schools. They wouldn’t publish information that disputes it. They aren’t a news source.

None of us can speak for a whole nation of schools. I know our schools are doing fine. On the other hand my sister lives in a middle class suburb and we were discussing books my daughter is reading in 7th grade. My niece, who is graduating from college in May, told us that they watched the movies in 8th grade but didn’t read the books.

No, you don’t know if your schools are doing fine. Somebody can look at the schools I’ve worked in for years and thought they were “fine”, but they were being held together by teachers who go far beyond their contract requirements.

Your school isn’t sharing the behind-the-scenes chaos with you, so you don’t know which teacher lost their planning period for the 5th day in a row to subbing. You also don’t know which administrator made every teacher lose a valuable hour so the administrative pet project could get some attention.

They’re fine when it comes to the issues people are saying are happening at their schools. They are reading full books. They are learning grammar and spelling. It doesn’t look like they do anything differently than when I was in school academically. The biggest improvement in learning is computers.

Many teachers will disagree with you about computers. Students’ attention spans are a fraction of what they once were. They also cause tremendous distraction and disruption. (Fortnite had an update last week. Many students were simply playing that instead of getting their work done. I had an extensive conversation with a parent about it since her son rudely told me he would not be putting his laptop away.) So a lot of schools are moving away from using computers, and therefore returning to traditional learning and away from flashy, distracting screens.

And this thread is primarily about staffing and how a heavy administrative level is burdening teachers.

I’m glad your kids are reading books. I suspect there’s a ton more going on at your school that you don’t see or choose not to see.

[Anonymous]

Gatehouse is full of overpaid paper pushers who don't do anything that anyone actually needs. Seriously, if the whole building disappeared tomorrow, teachers wouldn't even know, and principals would probably be thrilled. These overpaid admins do nothing but go to meetings and create powerpoints that use a lot of bullet points to say nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an eye-opener !

I had some idea our local FCPS Administration was way over-staffed and has become a dumping ground for failed principals. But I had little idea how massive the the wasted $$ problem really is:

Democrats don’t care about your child’s education. You get what you vote for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I for one am sick of these stupid ice breakers. The last one we did during our staff meeting where we taped a piece of paper to our back and spent time having other teachers write nice things about us on our back (and we wrote on theirs) and when the time was up we got to read what people wrote. And I had done that same one just a few years prior at a different staff meeting. Do adults at other jobs do stuff like this? I'm genuinely curious.

Hey, I did that one too! I can still remember how tired and stressed I was, and how upset to have to stay late for a meeting that consisted of that stupid exercise. It comes in second in stupidity to the time they made each table keep a balloon in the air. Having to not only do that cringey stuff but also act happy and enthusiastic about it (admins would walk around the room and watch us) made the whole experience demeaning on both a personal and professional level. I wonder if they make middle and high school teachers do that stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.

This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.

+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.

It's the infantilization that gets me. Is there some sort of class that administrators have to take when getting their degree/license that teaches them to treat adults like they are 10 years old? I'm fairly sure lawyers and accountants and architects aren't asked to "think-pair-share" with their "elbow partner" in meetings or taken away from their work and forced to discuss what animal they'd be if they were an animal with someone they've seen every day for the past 10 years.

As an architect, when I worked for an insecure no-name firm, there was a fair amount of this nonsense going on.
When I worked for competitive leading edge firms with great client recognition, none of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an eye-opener !

I had some idea our local FCPS Administration was way over-staffed and has become a dumping ground for failed principals. But I had little idea how massive the the wasted $$ problem really is:

Wow!

I'm a teacher and am very nervous about possible cutbacks in the government and education, but this post is spot on.
School districts are absolutely bloated with admin positions which do nothing but create more useless work for teachers. This would be a great area to put on the chopping block.

If 50% of FCPS Gatehouse staff were laid off, teachers would have less “overhead” to get in the way of actual teaching. As a bonus, there would be more budget available for raises for actual instructional staff. That said, it will not happen with the current Fairfax County school board.

And, until one of the political parties changes how it creates candidates for school board, it will continue. Both parties put forward silly candidates, so there is no clear “sensible” candidate to vote for — assuming enough of Fairfax stopped voting the party line…

But process that keeps programs running, the district in compliance, and reviews for improvement would suddenly stop being done. Do principals and teachers want to take on that work.

These are very vague terms.
They are only useful if they actually support teachers and what they do. As in, professional development to keep them up to date on curriculum changes. Otherwise, what programs are we talking about?
Compliance and reviews for improvement is meaningless and not action-able for students. These categories are only meaningful for the governing system.

The student is the market and product. Not the system. Admins are essentially system components and as such they can and should be swapped out for more efficient and effective methods to render the desired end product.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They’re fine when it comes to the issues people are saying are happening at their schools. They are reading full books. They are learning grammar and spelling. It doesn’t look like they do anything differently than when I was in school academically. The biggest improvement in learning is computers.

If your school is working well for your family, that is great for you, but please understand that many schools, public or private, are not working well for many of their students. Part of the reason for that is that not enough is spent on actual teaching, while too much is spent on silly admin stuff that gets in the way of teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here it is for MCPS:

https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/county.pdf

11,762 teachers
7,134 non-teachers

= 38% of employees are not in teaching positions. Note this includes buliding services, cafeteria, etc.

Schools need maintenance and cafeteria workers.

Is there a number or % for the “central administration”?

+1 you need to look at the number of people in the central office. That’s the main problem