Declining education quality: too many admin staff and asst. principals

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.


This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.


+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.





Oh, and to add to my previous comment, the admin who orchestrates these stupid meetings and iniatives has no student contect himself, and has a much higher salary than any teacher.

Do you know what would be a better use of that money going to retaining a person for such a role? Hiring one or two additional teachers to work with students.


+100

I’ve commented before to colleagues that I hate being treated like a child. Your example of paper strips is right up there with starting every meeting we have with an SEL prompt. I’m an adult. I’m at my job. I don’t need SEL support. I don’t come to work to deal with my personal feelings or problems. I just want to do my actual job.
Anonymous
I’m not in teaching at all and even I can see that a far better use of money would be firing half the supervisors and administrators and hiring more teachers and teaching assistants for the classrooms. We should lobby our representatives for that.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.


This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.


+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.




It's the infantilization that gets me. Is there some sort of class that administrators have to take when getting their degree/license that teaches them to treat adults like they are 10 years old? I'm fairly sure lawyers and accountants and architects aren't asked to "think-pair-share" with their "elbow partner" in meetings or taken away from their work and forced to discuss what animal they'd be if they were an animal with someone they've seen every day for the past 10 years.
Anonymous
Another teacher here. MCPS. Agree with all of the above. We need more teachers
Anonymous
I theorize that the admin-to-student-outcome relationship is indirect. Schools have a lot more accountability measures that have been heaped on in the past two decades. It takes a lot of administrative personnel to stay on top of them. However, these accountability measures have little to do with actual student outcomes. Our social science research on what works is of poor quality, and the things we do in schools have little influence on the social factors students experience outside of school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.


This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.


+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.


As a parent this makes me livid for you and for the kids. We've moved from public to a private that doesn't have much in the way of admin or initiatives (the decline of public education was part of why and I was aware that this was a piece of the issue from reading various threads over in the FCPS forum for years) and the teachers actually have time to be invested!
Anonymous
What on earth are all these meetings about anyways? What is to be discussed? You are teaching your own subject, your own class ... It's like having a tennis team meeting about how you will all play together - useless!

In my DD high school, we have a principal, and for each grade, a principal. Each principal has an assistant principal - and they all have secretaries. Plus, a principal for tech and a principal for counseling - honestly, it is the craziest thing I have ever heard. There was a full on flowchart for who to contact about what.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.


This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.


+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.





Oh, and to add to my previous comment, the admin who orchestrates these stupid meetings and iniatives has no student contect himself, and has a much higher salary than any teacher.

Do you know what would be a better use of that money going to retaining a person for such a role? Hiring one or two additional teachers to work with students.


+100

I’ve commented before to colleagues that I hate being treated like a child. Your example of paper strips is right up there with starting every meeting we have with an SEL prompt. I’m an adult. I’m at my job. I don’t need SEL support. I don’t come to work to deal with my personal feelings or problems. I just want to do my actual job.


**THIS** is the problem with education. It's run as if everyone in the building is a fragile child. Bring back professionalism to education.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:I’m not in teaching at all and even I can see that a far better use of money would be firing half the supervisors and administrators and hiring more teachers and teaching assistants for the classrooms. We should lobby our representatives for that.


Agree, but how can parents / voters be helpful? If we were to “lobby” for admin cuts, would that come across as just being anti-public school and/or be opposed by the unions? Seriously, knowledgeable PPs, give us a list of practical talking points!
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
At my current school, there are too many admin, and each of them is scurrying to show that their post is relevant. In my school, high school teachers share a common calendar and work together to ensure that students don't have major assessments on the same day or near the same day when possible. None of the members of our bloated admin staff have the same consideration for teachers as they all rush to create new "initiatives" and processes and meetings.


This right here. My small Title I ES has 2 admin and 4 nebulous facilitators who do not work with students and are instead supposed to be supporting teachers in improving their practice. What it really means is those 6 people spend an awful lot of time making tasks for us to do in meeting after meeting without ever working with students or in a classroom so they can see just how desperately our kids need more effective help. Their suggestions are great in theory but not in practice and most of them do not have proven experience improving a school like ours. My “planning time” is spent doing tasks they make them look and feel good without actually helping accelerate the growth of my students who are YEARS below grade level.


+1000

And these are the people who are in charge of "assessing" teachers.

20 years ago, I had so much more time to actually read and produce meaningful feedback on my high school English students' writing. All that planning time has been jerked away from me, to the point that it now takes me weeks to get papers back, and my feedback is often rushed and not as useful. Admin don't care! They are happy that I am attending so many meetings, and that I am doing so many stupid tasks that have nothing to do with actually teaching or planning or grading, because they don't understand what teaching actually entails.

I am the one who mentioned the stupid Monday morning before-school meeting about "team building" for teachers. Let me tell you what this meeting entails. Last Monday, I arrived early before school and hurried to the designated meeting room. First we stood around a big table heaped with Christmas cookies and grapes for ten minutes; everyone was to tired and annoyed to actually eat anything. Some of us chatted about all the things we had to do that we wished we were allowed to actually do instead of this. Then, we were put into pairs and given some strips of paper to draw and read at our partner. Mine directed me to ask my partner, a teacher I work with every day, what her favorite song is and why. Then she asked me what color I would be if I were a color, and why. Then a pointless, cheery pep talk from an admin about how we are all rockstars and he knows it will be a busy week but we can do it! Then we all rushed, stressed and thinking about the long week ahead, to our classrooms for homeroom.





Oh, and to add to my previous comment, the admin who orchestrates these stupid meetings and iniatives has no student contect himself, and has a much higher salary than any teacher.

Do you know what would be a better use of that money going to retaining a person for such a role? Hiring one or two additional teachers to work with students.


+100

I’ve commented before to colleagues that I hate being treated like a child. Your example of paper strips is right up there with starting every meeting we have with an SEL prompt. I’m an adult. I’m at my job. I don’t need SEL support. I don’t come to work to deal with my personal feelings or problems. I just want to do my actual job.


**THIS** is the problem with education. It's run as if everyone in the building is a fragile child. Bring back professionalism to education.


Yes! And I could see on the photo directory at my kids' school that the "instructional coaches" all appeared to be about 25. Imagine being a teacher with 30 years of experience and expected to bow down to the wisdom of Hailee who just graduated from State U.
Anonymous
Feel free to blame your Republican governor for this! Elon Musk is not American and did not grow up in the US and has absolutely ZERO experience with the US educational system. He seems to think the USDOE runs things, but no ladies, it is mostly done at the state and local level.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I know I love graphs that don't cite their source and have unreadable labels!


Don’t take me long to find info:

https://oakmn.org/the-growth-in-school-admini...%20whopping%2088%25!


Of course, it's the school choice MFers...


Er, your vulgar language aside, I assume you are referring to proponents of vouchers when you wrote “school choice” ?

Not sure that issue is at all relevant here.


If you look at the post it is (DP)
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Feel free to blame your Republican governor for this! Elon Musk is not American and did not grow up in the US and has absolutely ZERO experience with the US educational system. He seems to think the USDOE runs things, but no ladies, it is mostly done at the state and local level.


Wait you think Youngkin did this? VDOE is not setting the number of admin in FCPS schools and at Gatehouse. You could maybe argue that some of the burden admin are supposed to be picking up (the measurment and data collection) comes from VDOE, I guess? But really, this was accelerating long before 2021.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Feel free to blame your Republican governor for this! Elon Musk is not American and did not grow up in the US and has absolutely ZERO experience with the US educational system. He seems to think the USDOE runs things, but no ladies, it is mostly done at the state and local level.


Wait you think Youngkin did this? VDOE is not setting the number of admin in FCPS schools and at Gatehouse. You could maybe argue that some of the burden admin are supposed to be picking up (the measurment and data collection) comes from VDOE, I guess? But really, this was accelerating long before 2021.


+1
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Feel free to blame your Republican governor for this! Elon Musk is not American and did not grow up in the US and has absolutely ZERO experience with the US educational system. He seems to think the USDOE runs things, but no ladies, it is mostly done at the state and local level.


Wait you think Youngkin did this? VDOE is not setting the number of admin in FCPS schools and at Gatehouse. You could maybe argue that some of the burden admin are supposed to be picking up (the measurment and data collection) comes from VDOE, I guess? But really, this was accelerating long before 2021.


I agree. This has little to do with local govt.

My thoughts? Teaching has gotten ridiculously challenging and many people are looking for a way out. Admin is the easy answer. So people apply for admin, and once they get the job they create additional positions to pull others out of the classroom. Then they end up needing to justify all these positions, and so we get the pointless initiatives. And who gets to deal with it? The teachers who didn’t take the opportunity to jump to admin.

So admin creates work and teachers do it. When I started teaching, I had 4 administrators. Now I have 11. Our school population has decreased.
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