Algebra I - 7th grade expectations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of posts blaming the teachers. There are bad apples in every profession, but this is also such a reflection of our times.

Taking Alegebra I Honors in 7th is an accelerated path. It’s not for everyone. I’m sure your child is very bright, but that doesn’t mean this level of acceleration is appropriate for them. It’s a high school level class and things get real at that point… it’s a big departure from elementary school whether you were doing well in AAP LIV or not.

This is not a humble brag, but my 8th grade DC has a 100 in that class. They feel bad about themselves that they waited until 8th, but they also see most of the 7th graders in the class struggling, as it’s the first time those kids have had to really work at something. You can be very smart and not ready to take a high school credit class your first year out of ES. And that’s okay. The math only gets much harder from here.

Some teachers are just bad. Our MS has two teachers covering Algebra for 7th graders, one teacher with an amazing reputation and one who is nice but teaches nothing. If you get the latter and can't transfer, you either teach your kid algebra or get a tutor.

Which i acknowledged. But in many cases, this isn’t the issue. Honors algebra in 7th (or earlier) is a rigorous path.lots of kids aren’t ready for that. It’s not the teacher’s job to make sure most kids are ready for that level of acceleration. There’s a curriculum designed to prepare kids for algebra and if you skip, you need to be gifted, enriched, or ready to work really hard to do well.
In my DC’s honors algebra class, the 8th graders are crushing it and most of the 7th graders are struggling. Only the very bright math 7th grade kids are doing well, or those that had outside enrichment. That’s not an individual teacher issue, that’s an issue with kids not being ready to skip steps and dive into more advanced math.
I skipped chemistry in high school and went to AP Chem directly because my gifted friend did. I was a top student, but not exceptional and certainly wasn’t doing chemistry enrichment outside of school. I ended up doing very well in the class and on the exam, but I had to work really hard for it because I didn’t have the building block knowledge of chemistry as a foundation. Wasn’t the teacher’s job to get me there, I had chosen to skip a step.

NP here. These AAP kids who qualified for algebra 1 honors didn’t skip anything, they’ve been accelerated since 5th and took 7H curriculum last year. You’re telling me a child with 99% IAAT and perfect score on 7th grade SOL isn’t ready? Please. The teacher’s job is to teach the current curriculum, not skip over and/or barely cover material because their expectation is that most of these kids are taking enrichment and learning it elsewhere. The gifted students still need to be taught. They get it quickly when they are, but teaching still needs to happen.

There has been a push for “new” methods among math teachers recently that include a lot of group work. Basically students are put into groups and given questions to work through together and they are essentially supposed to figure it out and teach each other while the teacher walks around and helps where needed. Perhaps this is what is going on in her class? My child, who was highly accelerated in math had this happen in a precalc class and it was super difficult to overcome the lack of actual instruction during class coupled with the volume of homework received that she then had to try and self-teach and work through. We ended up having to get a tutor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is taking Algebra in 7th and not having issues. His friends who worked hard in 6th grade are working hard for Bs this year in Algebra. It is a high school class that moves at a fast pace. It is an honors class so there are extensions. It could be that it is a stretch for your child. It is a stretch my kids friends but they don’t seem upset by it. You can get a tutor or the answer might be to move to 7th H.

Many of kids in class had already taken Algebra prior to start of class so the MS math was review and afterschool they were taking next level course (so next year math in school will also be review for those students). The other half had tutors for most part. The teacher also addressed class as review as it was a review for majority there. Was odd.

This was our experience so if you are one of the families not getting outside tutoring, make sure your kid knows that other kids are or this is when kids who once loved math may start to think they are not as good in math as they thought. That thinking is entirely false, but may feel like it if the rest of the class already knows a concept. Suddenly your kid getting it in 5 minutes may seem slow v fast, because everyone else in class didn’t even need those 5 minutes. Make sure kid knows they are NOT behind if they are actually learning Algebra IN the class- that was originally how meant to learn it and they can still do well. Just others for whatever reason may already know things, but that doesn’t mean your kid not still on track.

A student who only does school math will not become a strong math student, regardless of level of acceleration or not.

If I were drinking coffee, I would have spit it out right now. My friends and family with PhDs in math and math-related subjects would strongly beg to differ. Regardless of what the schools tell our kids every August, there is such thing as a math person and while that love can indeed be killed by poor teaching plenty find their way anyway, even without RSM/AoPS/Kumon/whatever.

My friend and family who are math professors and math-related professionals strongly beg to differ, as do my other friends and family who did well in math in school and then didn't do math afterward.

"Math people", who you know exist, do not handicap themselves to school math.

Yeah, I’m convinced my son’s middle school math would have primarily consisted of Zearn if we didn’t intervene and teach him at home. Schools are terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of posts blaming the teachers. There are bad apples in every profession, but this is also such a reflection of our times.

Taking Alegebra I Honors in 7th is an accelerated path. It’s not for everyone. I’m sure your child is very bright, but that doesn’t mean this level of acceleration is appropriate for them. It’s a high school level class and things get real at that point… it’s a big departure from elementary school whether you were doing well in AAP LIV or not.

This is not a humble brag, but my 8th grade DC has a 100 in that class. They feel bad about themselves that they waited until 8th, but they also see most of the 7th graders in the class struggling, as it’s the first time those kids have had to really work at something. You can be very smart and not ready to take a high school credit class your first year out of ES. And that’s okay. The math only gets much harder from here.

Some teachers are just bad. Our MS has two teachers covering Algebra for 7th graders, one teacher with an amazing reputation and one who is nice but teaches nothing. If you get the latter and can't transfer, you either teach your kid algebra or get a tutor.

Which i acknowledged. But in many cases, this isn’t the issue. Honors algebra in 7th (or earlier) is a rigorous path.lots of kids aren’t ready for that. It’s not the teacher’s job to make sure most kids are ready for that level of acceleration. There’s a curriculum designed to prepare kids for algebra and if you skip, you need to be gifted, enriched, or ready to work really hard to do well.
In my DC’s honors algebra class, the 8th graders are crushing it and most of the 7th graders are struggling. Only the very bright math 7th grade kids are doing well, or those that had outside enrichment. That’s not an individual teacher issue, that’s an issue with kids not being ready to skip steps and dive into more advanced math.
I skipped chemistry in high school and went to AP Chem directly because my gifted friend did. I was a top student, but not exceptional and certainly wasn’t doing chemistry enrichment outside of school. I ended up doing very well in the class and on the exam, but I had to work really hard for it because I didn’t have the building block knowledge of chemistry as a foundation. Wasn’t the teacher’s job to get me there, I had chosen to skip a step.

NP here. These AAP kids who qualified for algebra 1 honors didn’t skip anything, they’ve been accelerated since 5th and took 7H curriculum last year. You’re telling me a child with 99% IAAT and perfect score on 7th grade SOL isn’t ready? Please. The teacher’s job is to teach the current curriculum, not skip over and/or barely cover material because their expectation is that most of these kids are taking enrichment and learning it elsewhere. The gifted students still need to be taught. They get it quickly when they are, but teaching still needs to happen.

There has been a push for “new” methods among math teachers recently that include a lot of group work. Basically students are put into groups and given questions to work through together and they are essentially supposed to figure it out and teach each other while the teacher walks around and helps where needed. Perhaps this is what is going on in her class? My child, who was highly accelerated in math had this happen in a precalc class and it was super difficult to overcome the lack of actual instruction during class coupled with the volume of homework received that she then had to try and self-teach and work through. We ended up having to get a tutor.

I'm glad you put "new" in quotes, because bad teachers have been doing this for decades. It used to be a prized strategy at TJ for some units and is definitely part of the W&M math extensions used in AAP.

That said, I do think in the last decade or so there's been more and more of it. The worst is that the educational fads of the day let them pretend kids are learning better this way, when decades of research shows direct instruction provides the best benefit to all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A b+ is a very good grade. And also, a D is still passing.

I’m genuinely curious— why is it so bad to have a B+ in an advanced 7th grade algebra class? Seemingly concerning enough that it requires intervention with tutoring and/or outside classes. No doubt it’s an important subject. I also understand it would be ideal to master all the topics to avoid a cumulative knowledge gap, but I’m curious if there’s more to it (e.g., TJ admission?).

I have an elementary school child who is advanced, so I’m curious for future planning.

Seventh grade is the first time most of the students in FCPS will see an actual letter grade that is backed by school work. Up until now, we have seen Teacher assigned 1-4 and everyone is pretty well aware that those numbers could be a bit random. Most of the kids in Algebra 1 in 7th grade will have had solid 4’s through ES, maybe the occasional 3. My child had one 2 back in second grade because his handwriting was horrible. We worked on it, it was less horrible, and he ended up with a 4 at the end of the year in that category. But his core grades in LA, Social Studies, Science, and Math were all 4s.

That first non-A is a bit of a shocker to parents and the kids. I would also guess that this is the first time that some students are having to work for that A, which is a bit of a shock. DS has an A in Algebra 1 as a seventh grader and says that the class is challenging, it is the first time he has described math at school as anything but boring. He doesn’t bring home much homework or seem to need to study much for tests but he is no longer dismissing the class as easy.

So there is that. And there are plenty of people on this site who have been fixated on TJ and Top 10 schools since their kids were born, a B+ is especially panic inducing for those families. People expunge foreign language grades, including As, taken in MS so that they can bump their kids GPAs by a few points because those classes don’t have the weight added from an Honors designation. And now the kid can two extra honors level classes or AP classes to boost their GPA. Yes, these people exist and they do post on the FCPS and this forum. They are a minority and I am not saying these parents are in this group just saying that they exist.

For the families that are less goal oriented, a B+ in a previously easy class with a child working at it is a new experience. A tutor to help the child better understand the material makes sense. I know people whose kids are in RSM so they get some additional reinforcement because math is not their kids strong point. The class and extra material give the kid confidence and help them understand the material better, same as a tutor in many ways.

We have been discussing study skills with DS. His lowest grade on a test is an 85%, nothing panic inducing. Our concern was that he had not bothered to review the test to see what he got wrong and make sure he understands the material for the future. We focus on effort and told him not understanding what he got wrong was an issue with lack of effort. We didn’t make him retake the test, he chose not to, but we did tell him he had to review his mistakes and make sure he understands the material. We want him to learn how to study and approach material that he does not immediately grasp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A b+ is a very good grade. And also, a D is still passing.

I’m genuinely curious— why is it so bad to have a B+ in an advanced 7th grade algebra class? Seemingly concerning enough that it requires intervention with tutoring and/or outside classes. No doubt it’s an important subject. I also understand it would be ideal to master all the topics to avoid a cumulative knowledge gap, but I’m curious if there’s more to it (e.g., TJ admission?).

I have an elementary school child who is advanced, so I’m curious for future planning.

The bolded should be the main concern. Any topics that the child failed to master in Algebra I will come back to haunt the child in Algebra II or precalc. It's much easier to stay on top of any math gaps as they crop up rather than need to remediate later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A b+ is a very good grade. And also, a D is still passing.

I’m genuinely curious— why is it so bad to have a B+ in an advanced 7th grade algebra class? Seemingly concerning enough that it requires intervention with tutoring and/or outside classes. No doubt it’s an important subject. I also understand it would be ideal to master all the topics to avoid a cumulative knowledge gap, but I’m curious if there’s more to it (e.g., TJ admission?).

I have an elementary school child who is advanced, so I’m curious for future planning.

Seventh grade is the first time most of the students in FCPS will see an actual letter grade that is backed by school work. Up until now, we have seen Teacher assigned 1-4 and everyone is pretty well aware that those numbers could be a bit random. Most of the kids in Algebra 1 in 7th grade will have had solid 4’s through ES, maybe the occasional 3. My child had one 2 back in second grade because his handwriting was horrible. We worked on it, it was less horrible, and he ended up with a 4 at the end of the year in that category. But his core grades in LA, Social Studies, Science, and Math were all 4s.

That first non-A is a bit of a shocker to parents and the kids. I would also guess that this is the first time that some students are having to work for that A, which is a bit of a shock. DS has an A in Algebra 1 as a seventh grader and says that the class is challenging, it is the first time he has described math at school as anything but boring. He doesn’t bring home much homework or seem to need to study much for tests but he is no longer dismissing the class as easy.

So there is that. And there are plenty of people on this site who have been fixated on TJ and Top 10 schools since their kids were born, a B+ is especially panic inducing for those families. People expunge foreign language grades, including As, taken in MS so that they can bump their kids GPAs by a few points because those classes don’t have the weight added from an Honors designation. And now the kid can two extra honors level classes or AP classes to boost their GPA. Yes, these people exist and they do post on the FCPS and this forum. They are a minority and I am not saying these parents are in this group just saying that they exist.

For the families that are less goal oriented, a B+ in a previously easy class with a child working at it is a new experience. A tutor to help the child better understand the material makes sense. I know people whose kids are in RSM so they get some additional reinforcement because math is not their kids strong point. The class and extra material give the kid confidence and help them understand the material better, same as a tutor in many ways.

We have been discussing study skills with DS. His lowest grade on a test is an 85%, nothing panic inducing. Our concern was that he had not bothered to review the test to see what he got wrong and make sure he understands the material for the future. We focus on effort and told him not understanding what he got wrong was an issue with lack of effort. We didn’t make him retake the test, he chose not to, but we did tell him he had to review his mistakes and make sure he understands the material. We want him to learn how to study and approach material that he does not immediately grasp.

We know families applying out for high school. They are all trying to get their kids into the same handful of schools. If Suzy and Janie and Debbie have 4.0s and your kid has a 3.5, then you may get concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A b+ is a very good grade. And also, a D is still passing.

I’m genuinely curious— why is it so bad to have a B+ in an advanced 7th grade algebra class? Seemingly concerning enough that it requires intervention with tutoring and/or outside classes. No doubt it’s an important subject. I also understand it would be ideal to master all the topics to avoid a cumulative knowledge gap, but I’m curious if there’s more to it (e.g., TJ admission?).

I have an elementary school child who is advanced, so I’m curious for future planning.

DP. But I’d be concerned too. Alg I is probably THE most important and pivotal math class in all K-12. If your child has aspirations to go on to calculus+ and into a STEM field, they need to mastery of >93 % of Alg I content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of posts blaming the teachers. There are bad apples in every profession, but this is also such a reflection of our times.

Taking Alegebra I Honors in 7th is an accelerated path. It’s not for everyone. I’m sure your child is very bright, but that doesn’t mean this level of acceleration is appropriate for them. It’s a high school level class and things get real at that point… it’s a big departure from elementary school whether you were doing well in AAP LIV or not.

This is not a humble brag, but my 8th grade DC has a 100 in that class. They feel bad about themselves that they waited until 8th, but they also see most of the 7th graders in the class struggling, as it’s the first time those kids have had to really work at something. You can be very smart and not ready to take a high school credit class your first year out of ES. And that’s okay. The math only gets much harder from here.

Some teachers are just bad. Our MS has two teachers covering Algebra for 7th graders, one teacher with an amazing reputation and one who is nice but teaches nothing. If you get the latter and can't transfer, you either teach your kid algebra or get a tutor.

Which i acknowledged. But in many cases, this isn’t the issue. Honors algebra in 7th (or earlier) is a rigorous path.lots of kids aren’t ready for that. It’s not the teacher’s job to make sure most kids are ready for that level of acceleration. There’s a curriculum designed to prepare kids for algebra and if you skip, you need to be gifted, enriched, or ready to work really hard to do well.
In my DC’s honors algebra class, the 8th graders are crushing it and most of the 7th graders are struggling. Only the very bright math 7th grade kids are doing well, or those that had outside enrichment. That’s not an individual teacher issue, that’s an issue with kids not being ready to skip steps and dive into more advanced math.
I skipped chemistry in high school and went to AP Chem directly because my gifted friend did. I was a top student, but not exceptional and certainly wasn’t doing chemistry enrichment outside of school. I ended up doing very well in the class and on the exam, but I had to work really hard for it because I didn’t have the building block knowledge of chemistry as a foundation. Wasn’t the teacher’s job to get me there, I had chosen to skip a step.

NP here. These AAP kids who qualified for algebra 1 honors didn’t skip anything, they’ve been accelerated since 5th and took 7H curriculum last year. You’re telling me a child with 99% IAAT and perfect score on 7th grade SOL isn’t ready? Please. The teacher’s job is to teach the current curriculum, not skip over and/or barely cover material because their expectation is that most of these kids are taking enrichment and learning it elsewhere. The gifted students still need to be taught. They get it quickly when they are, but teaching still needs to happen.

There has been a push for “new” methods among math teachers recently that include a lot of group work. Basically students are put into groups and given questions to work through together and they are essentially supposed to figure it out and teach each other while the teacher walks around and helps where needed. Perhaps this is what is going on in her class? My child, who was highly accelerated in math had this happen in a precalc class and it was super difficult to overcome the lack of actual instruction during class coupled with the volume of homework received that she then had to try and self-teach and work through. We ended up having to get a tutor.

I'm glad you put "new" in quotes, because bad teachers have been doing this for decades. It used to be a prized strategy at TJ for some units and is definitely part of the W&M math extensions used in AAP.

That said, I do think in the last decade or so there's been more and more of it. The worst is that the educational fads of the day let them pretend kids are learning better this way, when decades of research shows direct instruction provides the best benefit to all students.

There are two kinds of group work, or they're the same kind depending your perspective.

There's group work that magnet / gifted kids do, because they learned the core material in 5 minutes and then need to fill to the rest of the day.
Then there's group work that struggling kids do, because they can't learn the core material and it's too frustrating, and the group work is an alternative that keeps them busy.

Of course, this choice is made by the school placement and curriculum decision in bulk, not for any specific child's individual need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A b+ is a very good grade. And also, a D is still passing.

I’m genuinely curious— why is it so bad to have a B+ in an advanced 7th grade algebra class? Seemingly concerning enough that it requires intervention with tutoring and/or outside classes. No doubt it’s an important subject. I also understand it would be ideal to master all the topics to avoid a cumulative knowledge gap, but I’m curious if there’s more to it (e.g., TJ admission?).

I have an elementary school child who is advanced, so I’m curious for future planning.

DP. But I’d be concerned too. Alg I is probably THE most important and pivotal math class in all K-12. If your child has aspirations to go on to calculus+ and into a STEM field, they need to mastery of >93 % of Alg I content.

That's mostly because usually Geometry class comes next, and lets those algebra skills atrophy for a year before Algebra 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of posts blaming the teachers. There are bad apples in every profession, but this is also such a reflection of our times.

Taking Alegebra I Honors in 7th is an accelerated path. It’s not for everyone. I’m sure your child is very bright, but that doesn’t mean this level of acceleration is appropriate for them. It’s a high school level class and things get real at that point… it’s a big departure from elementary school whether you were doing well in AAP LIV or not.

This is not a humble brag, but my 8th grade DC has a 100 in that class. They feel bad about themselves that they waited until 8th, but they also see most of the 7th graders in the class struggling, as it’s the first time those kids have had to really work at something. You can be very smart and not ready to take a high school credit class your first year out of ES. And that’s okay. The math only gets much harder from here.

Some teachers are just bad. Our MS has two teachers covering Algebra for 7th graders, one teacher with an amazing reputation and one who is nice but teaches nothing. If you get the latter and can't transfer, you either teach your kid algebra or get a tutor.

Which i acknowledged. But in many cases, this isn’t the issue. Honors algebra in 7th (or earlier) is a rigorous path.lots of kids aren’t ready for that. It’s not the teacher’s job to make sure most kids are ready for that level of acceleration. There’s a curriculum designed to prepare kids for algebra and if you skip, you need to be gifted, enriched, or ready to work really hard to do well.
In my DC’s honors algebra class, the 8th graders are crushing it and most of the 7th graders are struggling. Only the very bright math 7th grade kids are doing well, or those that had outside enrichment. That’s not an individual teacher issue, that’s an issue with kids not being ready to skip steps and dive into more advanced math.
I skipped chemistry in high school and went to AP Chem directly because my gifted friend did. I was a top student, but not exceptional and certainly wasn’t doing chemistry enrichment outside of school. I ended up doing very well in the class and on the exam, but I had to work really hard for it because I didn’t have the building block knowledge of chemistry as a foundation. Wasn’t the teacher’s job to get me there, I had chosen to skip a step.

NP here. These AAP kids who qualified for algebra 1 honors didn’t skip anything, they’ve been accelerated since 5th and took 7H curriculum last year. You’re telling me a child with 99% IAAT and perfect score on 7th grade SOL isn’t ready? Please. The teacher’s job is to teach the current curriculum, not skip over and/or barely cover material because their expectation is that most of these kids are taking enrichment and learning it elsewhere. The gifted students still need to be taught. They get it quickly when they are, but teaching still needs to happen.

There has been a push for “new” methods among math teachers recently that include a lot of group work. Basically students are put into groups and given questions to work through together and they are essentially supposed to figure it out and teach each other while the teacher walks around and helps where needed. Perhaps this is what is going on in her class? My child, who was highly accelerated in math had this happen in a precalc class and it was super difficult to overcome the lack of actual instruction during class coupled with the volume of homework received that she then had to try and self-teach and work through. We ended up having to get a tutor.

I'm glad you put "new" in quotes, because bad teachers have been doing this for decades. It used to be a prized strategy at TJ for some units and is definitely part of the W&M math extensions used in AAP.

That said, I do think in the last decade or so there's been more and more of it. The worst is that the educational fads of the day let them pretend kids are learning better this way, when decades of research shows direct instruction provides the best benefit to all students.

There are two kinds of group work, or they're the same kind depending your perspective.

There's group work that magnet / gifted kids do, because they learned the core material in 5 minutes and then need to fill to the rest of the day.
Then there's group work that struggling kids do, because they can't learn the core material and it's too frustrating, and the group work is an alternative that keeps them busy.

Of course, this choice is made by the school placement and curriculum decision in bulk, not for any specific child's individual need.

Maybe to the bolded, but in my experience gifted kids do group work to teach themselves the material. It works for some of them. Others don't learn well that way.