Data Analysts - Where are you? (CAPE)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a big Basis selling point is the test scores. discussions about Basis almost always emphasize them.

You don’t have to make false comparisons to talk about the test scores. You could honestly say “at the end of 10th grade, after six years at the school, almost all BASIS students can pass an Algebra I exam.”

Maybe but you can definitely say with complete accuracy that "at the end of 10th grade, a majority of students at every other so-called top school--namely Walls, Banneker, J-R, Latin, and DCI--is below grade level in math."

You cannot say this because it isn’t true. Very few 10th graders at some of these schools even take the CAPE. Because they are already in Precalc or AP Calc. The only way to do a true comparison is to have all kids in 10th grade at these schools take the Algebra I CAPE. Then you can compare the numbers.

THIS. I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand by the Basis crowd??? Are they just in denial or just can’t admit the reality that Basis scores are just not valid at all in regards to comparison.

If the other schools had all their 10 graders who have completed Algebra 1 take the Algebra 1 PARCC them that is different

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

ITDS started prioritizing accepting at risk kids in the lottery.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I'm not bothered by the basis kids scoring well on material at their grade level because they are so far ahead of grade level. Make they're cooking the books somehow, but that's not what this is. [/quote]

Algebra I is not “at their grade level” for 10th graders. It’s remedial.

And it’s “cooking the books” whenever you use the numbers to compare BASIS to any other school. [/quote]

This is a dumb take.

Basis starts algebra and geometry in 7th grade. They didn't develop their curriculum to track CAPE testing, and no one expects 7th graders to be tested on algebra and geometry in 7th grade.

The fact is that, as a general matter, the Basis math curriculum is the most advanced among public schools in DC. So, it is no surprise that, by 10th grade, they have the highest math CAPE scores in DC.

Most 10th graders are taking AP Calculus AB in 10th grade (and many took AP Precalculus in 9th grade), and some are taking Calculus BC. There is no CAPE test for that.

By PP's absurd logic, schools such as TJ in Fairfax County are "cooking the books" on SAT/ACT math scores (average math SAT is 780 and average math ACT is 35) because they teach math at such a high level and kids are taking the SAT and ACT after having taken math at that level.[/quote]

The point is that you cannot compare high school scores between BASIS and other schools because BASIS handles CAPE testing differently from every other middle and high school in DC.

At all other schools, the advanced students take Algebra and Geometry CAPE tests early on and are largely not testing at all once they reach the high school grades. At BASIS, all students are still testing in the high school grades. There's an obvious selection effect there that makes it so the scores are not directly comparable.[/quote]

That's theoretically possible, but if you look by high schools and determine the number of "missing" math students, it's typically a very low proportion. A lot of students retake algebra in 8th grade, and there's also the algebra 2 test. The far bigger issue is the BASIS middle school attrition/testing to advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

ITDS started prioritizing accepting at risk kids in the lottery.

The EA lottery kids aren't old enough for PARCC yet. Although I suppose they could have conferred sibling preference on older kids...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a big Basis selling point is the test scores. discussions about Basis almost always emphasize them.

You don’t have to make false comparisons to talk about the test scores. You could honestly say “at the end of 10th grade, after six years at the school, almost all BASIS students can pass an Algebra I exam.”

Maybe but you can definitely say with complete accuracy that "at the end of 10th grade, a majority of students at every other so-called top school--namely Walls, Banneker, J-R, Latin, and DCI--is below grade level in math."

You cannot say this because it isn’t true. Very few 10th graders at some of these schools even take the CAPE. Because they are already in Precalc or AP Calc. The only way to do a true comparison is to have all kids in 10th grade at these schools take the Algebra I CAPE. Then you can compare the numbers.

THIS. I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand by the Basis crowd??? Are they just in denial or just can’t admit the reality that Basis scores are just not valid at all in regards to comparison.

If the other schools had all their 10 graders who have completed Algebra 1 take the Algebra 1 PARCC them that is different

The best comparison I can think of is all 10th graders at these other schools take the ELA 7th grade exam. Or the 7th grade math exam. And ALL 10th graders do it. Because at a school like Walls only like 50 out of 150 10th graders even take the math CAPE.

[Anonymous]

Is CAPE scored differently than PARCC? I noticed a few NW schools like Janney, Stoddert, and Murch had a few grades that went down 10+ points in math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

I don't mean this as a jab to Two Rivers, just want to make sure I am looking at site correctly. I went to the EmpowerEd site, and sorted by performance of 'all students'. When I sorted by school, it looked like they dropped 2-4% from last year's scores, and a range of 3-21% less than pre-pandemic. Again, not judging that school at all, and I think the emphasis on these tests is not the best way to use our energy. But just wanted to ask if I was looking at that data incorrectly before I started looking at other data.

It's totally possible that I'm doing it wrong. You have to be really careful looking at all the subgroups and it's easy to mess it up.

Not PP but it automatically sets to at risk group so you need to change drop down to all students.

IMO that is the strongest way to interpret these test results. If a school improves its scores bc the demographics shift and they have more affluent kids it doesn't mean as much to me. Schools that do the best job at chipping away at the achievement gap should be celebrated the most.

Those are the schools to avoid because they have learned they can close the gap by pulling down the top learners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is CAPE scored differently than PARCC? I noticed a few NW schools like Janney, Stoddert, and Murch had a few grades that went down 10+ points in math.

CAPE is the same thing as PARCC; they just changed the name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

I don't mean this as a jab to Two Rivers, just want to make sure I am looking at site correctly. I went to the EmpowerEd site, and sorted by performance of 'all students'. When I sorted by school, it looked like they dropped 2-4% from last year's scores, and a range of 3-21% less than pre-pandemic. Again, not judging that school at all, and I think the emphasis on these tests is not the best way to use our energy. But just wanted to ask if I was looking at that data incorrectly before I started looking at other data.

It's totally possible that I'm doing it wrong. You have to be really careful looking at all the subgroups and it's easy to mess it up.

Not PP but it automatically sets to at risk group so you need to change drop down to all students.

IMO that is the strongest way to interpret these test results. If a school improves its scores bc the demographics shift and they have more affluent kids it doesn't mean as much to me. Schools that do the best job at chipping away at the achievement gap should be celebrated the most.

Those are the schools to avoid because they have learned they can close the gap by pulling down the top learners.

There are schools where there are very high achieving kids, and the lower achieving kids also improve. It is not always one or the other. I have seen teachers who have pushed kids in fourth grade to a 6th or seventh grade level while at the same time bringing up children that started at a first grade level 2-3 grade levels. The second student is still 'behind' by the end of 4th grade, but that growth is crucial. Again, not at every school, but data from schools can show both high achievement and decreasing gaps.

[Anonymous]

Y’all are ridiculous in judging schools by one standardized data point. Yes, it might say something but is that something defined the same by all those who view it? Interpret it? Understand it?

You do realize there is so much more that goes into understanding if an individual student is “college and career ready.” I guarantee half of you would tank the upper grade tests on CAPE. Punctuation, spelling, and sentence formation alone! I double dare you to prove your math skills.

Take a deep breath, you mostly white non-native DC residents. Look at your kid and their development as a spectrum - and a continuum. Stop focusing on one set of tests at the end of a school year.

And you’re embarrassing yourself when you judge your kid’s school in that one data point. We know who you are.

Signed,

Deeply engaged PTO member and parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y’all are ridiculous in judging schools by one standardized data point. Yes, it might say something but is that something defined the same by all those who view it? Interpret it? Understand it?

You do realize there is so much more that goes into understanding if an individual student is “college and career ready.” I guarantee half of you would tank the upper grade tests on CAPE. Punctuation, spelling, and sentence formation alone! I double dare you to prove your math skills.

Take a deep breath, you mostly white non-native DC residents. Look at your kid and their development as a spectrum - and a continuum. Stop focusing on one set of tests at the end of a school year.

And you’re embarrassing yourself when you judge your kid’s school in that one data point. We know who you are.

Signed,

Deeply engaged PTO member and parent.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y’all are ridiculous in judging schools by one standardized data point. Yes, it might say something but is that something defined the same by all those who view it? Interpret it? Understand it?

You do realize there is so much more that goes into understanding if an individual student is “college and career ready.” I guarantee half of you would tank the upper grade tests on CAPE. Punctuation, spelling, and sentence formation alone! I double dare you to prove your math skills.

Take a deep breath, you mostly white non-native DC residents. Look at your kid and their development as a spectrum - and a continuum. Stop focusing on one set of tests at the end of a school year.

And you’re embarrassing yourself when you judge your kid’s school in that one data point. We know who you are.

Signed,

Deeply engaged PTO member and parent.

I do not judge my kid's school, or any school, by one data point. My kid attends a title 1 school with below average test scores but I know it's a good school for him. I am also a "deeply engaged PTO member."

But you seem mad that people are discussing CAPE scores at all or might note that a school saw an improvement or decline year over year, or look at trends in CAPE scores over a longer period, and draw some conclusions. That's crazy to me. Of course you have to put these scores in context and also consider metrics outside of scores (including how your own child is doing academically and what their experience is at school) but it's reasonable in a thread about CAPE data for posters to discuss CAPE data.

I have no idea why you found it necessary to state what you believe other posters' race and background is. Who cares? DC is a diverse city and people of many races and backgrounds care about test scores among other metrics in schools. There's not some racial divide on that issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

I don't mean this as a jab to Two Rivers, just want to make sure I am looking at site correctly. I went to the EmpowerEd site, and sorted by performance of 'all students'. When I sorted by school, it looked like they dropped 2-4% from last year's scores, and a range of 3-21% less than pre-pandemic. Again, not judging that school at all, and I think the emphasis on these tests is not the best way to use our energy. But just wanted to ask if I was looking at that data incorrectly before I started looking at other data.

It's totally possible that I'm doing it wrong. You have to be really careful looking at all the subgroups and it's easy to mess it up.

Not PP but it automatically sets to at risk group so you need to change drop down to all students.

IMO that is the strongest way to interpret these test results. If a school improves its scores bc the demographics shift and they have more affluent kids it doesn't mean as much to me. Schools that do the best job at chipping away at the achievement gap should be celebrated the most.

Those are the schools to avoid because they have learned they can close the gap by pulling down the top learners.

There are schools where there are very high achieving kids, and the lower achieving kids also improve. It is not always one or the other. I have seen teachers who have pushed kids in fourth grade to a 6th or seventh grade level while at the same time bringing up children that started at a first grade level 2-3 grade levels. The second student is still 'behind' by the end of 4th grade, but that growth is crucial. Again, not at every school, but data from schools can show both high achievement and decreasing gaps.

Sure there might be an exception or outlier but totally agree with above. DC tries to close the achievement gap by bringing down the top. The top students are not given appropriate educational content and thus do not teach their full potential. The achievement gap actually would be even wider. Courses are dumb down and grade inflation is rampant.

Talk to any teacher and ask them if they are able to effectively differentiate in classes where you have kids 3-4 grades apart, especially when the majority of those kids are on the lower end. I already know the answer to that. The outlier or exceptional teacher might be able to do that in mid elementary but no way in middle or high school. This is also based on the scenario that they have exceptional class management skills because we all know none of the kids are learning anything when behavioral issues dominant in the class which BTW gets much worst as kids get older.


Even with that, it’s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

I don't mean this as a jab to Two Rivers, just want to make sure I am looking at site correctly. I went to the EmpowerEd site, and sorted by performance of 'all students'. When I sorted by school, it looked like they dropped 2-4% from last year's scores, and a range of 3-21% less than pre-pandemic. Again, not judging that school at all, and I think the emphasis on these tests is not the best way to use our energy. But just wanted to ask if I was looking at that data incorrectly before I started looking at other data.

It's totally possible that I'm doing it wrong. You have to be really careful looking at all the subgroups and it's easy to mess it up.

Not PP but it automatically sets to at risk group so you need to change drop down to all students.

IMO that is the strongest way to interpret these test results. If a school improves its scores bc the demographics shift and they have more affluent kids it doesn't mean as much to me. Schools that do the best job at chipping away at the achievement gap should be celebrated the most.

Those are the schools to avoid because they have learned they can close the gap by pulling down the top learners.

There are schools where there are very high achieving kids, and the lower achieving kids also improve. It is not always one or the other. I have seen teachers who have pushed kids in fourth grade to a 6th or seventh grade level while at the same time bringing up children that started at a first grade level 2-3 grade levels. The second student is still 'behind' by the end of 4th grade, but that growth is crucial. Again, not at every school, but data from schools can show both high achievement and decreasing gaps.

My kids' experience was the exact opposite, where top performing kids doing worse would have been welcomed, as it helped close the gap. We got them out of that school and it has terrible results on this test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big improvement at Two Rivers, all campuses.

Slight dip at ITDS.

I don't mean this as a jab to Two Rivers, just want to make sure I am looking at site correctly. I went to the EmpowerEd site, and sorted by performance of 'all students'. When I sorted by school, it looked like they dropped 2-4% from last year's scores, and a range of 3-21% less than pre-pandemic. Again, not judging that school at all, and I think the emphasis on these tests is not the best way to use our energy. But just wanted to ask if I was looking at that data incorrectly before I started looking at other data.

It's totally possible that I'm doing it wrong. You have to be really careful looking at all the subgroups and it's easy to mess it up.

Not PP but it automatically sets to at risk group so you need to change drop down to all students.

IMO that is the strongest way to interpret these test results. If a school improves its scores bc the demographics shift and they have more affluent kids it doesn't mean as much to me. Schools that do the best job at chipping away at the achievement gap should be celebrated the most.

Those are the schools to avoid because they have learned they can close the gap by pulling down the top learners.

There are schools where there are very high achieving kids, and the lower achieving kids also improve. It is not always one or the other. I have seen teachers who have pushed kids in fourth grade to a 6th or seventh grade level while at the same time bringing up children that started at a first grade level 2-3 grade levels. The second student is still 'behind' by the end of 4th grade, but that growth is crucial. Again, not at every school, but data from schools can show both high achievement and decreasing gaps.

Sure there might be an exception or outlier but totally agree with above. DC tries to close the achievement gap by bringing down the top. The top students are not given appropriate educational content and thus do not teach their full potential. The achievement gap actually would be even wider. Courses are dumb down and grade inflation is rampant.

Talk to any teacher and ask them if they are able to effectively differentiate in classes where you have kids 3-4 grades apart, especially when the majority of those kids are on the lower end. I already know the answer to that. The outlier or exceptional teacher might be able to do that in mid elementary but no way in middle or high school. This is also based on the scenario that they have exceptional class management skills because we all know none of the kids are learning anything when behavioral issues dominant in the class which BTW gets much worst as kids get older.


Even with that, it’s

I was able to differentiate for middle schools. There were 5 different levels of lessons. In order to do it, I didn’t do whole group instruction. The issue is that in DCPS, you aren’t allowed this flexibility. They expect you to teach “tier 1” instruction and think a one size fits all approach in the core classes actually works. They will say “scaffold”, but scaffolds without changing the actual content/skill don’t help when you are too far below or too far beyond the mean.