Has anyone here on a normal income successfully FIREd?

[Anonymous]

Your priorities may change when you have kids OP. My DH and I were kind of on the FIRE train before our kid was born but now we are very happy with just the FI portion. Meaning that we have a nice nest egg that has allowed us to take more low key flexible jobs that pay below our earning potential, but save us from a lot of stress and sacrifices to our free time. We will probably still retire early, but in our 50s once kids are in college, rather than in our 30s or 40s. We have money for extras for our kids and don't have to deprive them of valuable life experiences because Mom and Dad don't want to work.

[Anonymous]

Play guitar, hike, time with loved ones... What I'm not hearing you say, OP, is that you want to do all your own cleaning and chores and home maintenance, and spend lots and lots of time caring for babies and toddlers. Diapers, feeding, picking up after them, dealing with the constantly grimy and gross state of the house... That's what people do who have no childcare. Day after day after day. Is that what you want?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Play guitar, hike, time with loved ones... What I'm not hearing you say, OP, is that you want to do all your own cleaning and chores and home maintenance, and spend lots and lots of time caring for babies and toddlers. Diapers, feeding, picking up after them, dealing with the constantly grimy and gross state of the house... That's what people do who have no childcare. Day after day after day. Is that what you want?

Of course that's not what he wants. That's what his "33yo similarly minded wife" will be doing, since she also won't be working.

OP, as he has stated, will be hiking and playing guitar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Play guitar, hike, time with loved ones... What I'm not hearing you say, OP, is that you want to do all your own cleaning and chores and home maintenance, and spend lots and lots of time caring for babies and toddlers. Diapers, feeding, picking up after them, dealing with the constantly grimy and gross state of the house... That's what people do who have no childcare. Day after day after day. Is that what you want?

Of course that's not what he wants. That's what his "33yo similarly minded wife" will be doing, since she also won't be working.

OP, as he has stated, will be hiking and playing guitar.

So he's retired and she's not. Even though she paid $1m for the privilege of being in this relationship. Awesome.

OP, you are not the catch you think you are!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP should find a woman within the FIRE movement. They’d have common values, goals, and interests.

I’m the one who wrote this. I think you’re all giving OP too much of a hard time. He’s told us about his ideal life. Why not let him try for it? FIRE people are obsessed with this retirement stuff, much like Bogleheads. They like to think about it a lot, talk about it a lot, and even have a healthy(ish) competition about it. My advice to zozo is to start trying to find a FIRE-minded woman now, make sure you’re compatible, and to build on your goals together. The older you get, the harder it is to meet someone of either gender, because the good ones get snapped up. Better to reset your expectations (if needed) while you’re younger. Then you won’t build up this ideal life but have no partner to share it with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP should find a woman within the FIRE movement. They’d have common values, goals, and interests.

I’m the one who wrote this. I think you’re all giving OP too much of a hard time. He’s told us about his ideal life. Why not let him try for it? FIRE people are obsessed with this retirement stuff, much like Bogleheads. They like to think about it a lot, talk about it a lot, and even have a healthy(ish) competition about it. My advice to zozo is to start trying to find a FIRE-minded woman now, make sure you’re compatible, and to build on your goals together. The older you get, the harder it is to meet someone of either gender, because the good ones get snapped up. Better to reset your expectations (if needed) while you’re younger. Then you won’t build up this ideal life but have no partner to share it with.

OP needs to realize that 1) his FIRE math is wrong, $90k is not enough; and 2) Women who want children on his FIRE timeline are few and far between. OP needs to start dating NOW, within the FIRE community, to really understand and accept this fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP should find a woman within the FIRE movement. They’d have common values, goals, and interests.

I’m the one who wrote this. I think you’re all giving OP too much of a hard time. He’s told us about his ideal life. Why not let him try for it? FIRE people are obsessed with this retirement stuff, much like Bogleheads. They like to think about it a lot, talk about it a lot, and even have a healthy(ish) competition about it. My advice to zozo is to start trying to find a FIRE-minded woman now, make sure you’re compatible, and to build on your goals together. The older you get, the harder it is to meet someone of either gender, because the good ones get snapped up. Better to reset your expectations (if needed) while you’re younger. Then you won’t build up this ideal life but have no partner to share it with.

OP needs to realize that 1) his FIRE math is wrong, $90k is not enough; and 2) Women who want children on his FIRE timeline are few and far between. OP needs to start dating NOW, within the FIRE community, to really understand and accept this fact.

He should also start dating now because if he does luck out and find someone like-minded, they can save more living in his paid-off condo together than living separately. But I think he's in for a bit of an awakening. $1M by 30 is a very high achiever, even in the FIRE community. Assuming he'll find someone he's compatible with who has also faced zero hurdles in their FIRE journey (free place to live for years, no break in employment, no student loans, etc) is really unlikely. His defensiveness about how perfectly reasonable his idealized outcome is comes across as immature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You need to figure out what kind of childhood you want your kids to have. HCOL or LCOL, and what are you willing to deny them for the sake of FIRE? You also need to understand that if one of your children has significant special needs, it will be really expensive and any notion of FIRE will vanish immediately. Instead it will be work until 70 to pay for therapies and adult care.

What is your FIRE number assuming your kids will need a 3br home, health insurance, and college? Are you willing to deny them all sports and activities? Are you willing to make them go in-state or to a much less good college just for FIRE? It can be hard to find a woman who's on board with that.

I would really question your assumption that there's no rush to have kids. Plenty of women don't want an older husband or don't want their kids to have an older dad, and that's what you're on track to be if you don't get serious about dating very soon. Yes late-30s men can still date, marry, and have kids, but it becomes more and more of a liability. Especially if they don't earn that much. You don't earn enough to make up for it.

Well, you didn’t answer the question, but you do raise some good points. My FIRE number is just for me, not for a family—my number is $2 million plus a paid-off $500,000 condo. That would provide $60,000 per year (3% withdrawal), which is fine for me.

Obviously, that would not be enough to support a family, But I assume that my future wife will probably have another million dollars and some home equity (after all, given how much I value savings, I don’t see how I could end up with a spouse that has a fundamentally different view in that regard).

So with $3 million and a paid-off house, I figure that’s plenty for a LCOL area. And I’m not opposed to working in the future if needed – I just don’t want it to be a necessity.

Lastly, I guess I just disagree with your assessment that, in a few years, I’ll be too old to date. I’ve never heard of a 33-year-old woman that wouldn’t date a 39-year-old man. In fact, that seems to be more common than not in my experience.

A 30 year old woman won't have $1,000,000 not even close. If she's 35+ like you, then you'll be paying roughly 60K in IVF costs per kid. Maybe only one, but still. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 40K per year in daycare, 150K per year for college...like I said, good luck!

I don’t foresee more than one or two kids, and I will definitely make sure that we pay in-state tuition for them, even if I have to go back to work to pay for that. However, I don’t buy into the DCUM notion that there’s any value whatsoever in those $80,000/year SLACs. If they want to go expensive colleges that are actually worth it (e.g., Harvard), they’re going to have to take out loans.

And there’s no daycare because we won’t be working – that’s the whole point.

Wait. Both of you not working. At age 41/35? And still paying for college (even in-state)? Show me the math.

Your demented stricture of $1m in savings at age 33 is ruling out a huge number of women. No doctors no PhDs. Nobody who's had any sort of significantly costly or work-impairing health problem. Who wants to FIRE-parent, meaning deny their kids various normal things, limited to 2 kids, with an older dad, in a LCOL area. Who has no family in need of support. And who actually likes you enough to do this. Can't you see you are looking for a unicorn?

Everyone is getting hung up on the $1 million savings at age 33. I do think that’s reasonable for someone with a professional job who values savings because, as I said, I have more than that saved at 33, while also having paid off a $500,000 condo and never having earned more than $150,000 per year (though I did live with my parents for several years and my expenses were zero during those years).

But even if she doesn’t have $1 million—for example, if she is significantly younger than 33 when we meet—once I have $2 million at age 38, it’s not that tough to add on another million assuming no major market crashes. I do 100% stocks, and we’d probably be able to add $100,000+ per year in contributions between the two of us. Assuming 10% growth with all stocks and $100,000 in new contributions per year, $2 million becomes $3 million in just three years—so even if she entered our marriage with zero savings, the plan is not that far off.

And regarding college, UMD in-state tuition is $11,000 per year, or $44,000 total per child. Sorry, but with one or two kids, that’s not going to derail anything. I would have them live at home for free unless they wanted to get a job to pay rent outside the house. “But what about summer camps?” Yes, we probably won’t be able to do a lot of those extras. I’m not a parent, so my thoughts on this could change, but I’m not a believer in the over-scheduled, activity-packed parenting style that is in vogue now. My life was much more laid-back as a child—I don’t think I suffered for it and would probably take a similar approach with my own kid(s). That’s actually kind of the whole point: there are always an endless number of things that you can spend money on and trade your life away to be able to pay for. I am actively choosing to live a simple life, which is totally doable on $3 million, even with a family.

This entire thread is evidence to the contrary. Jesus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And regarding college, UMD in-state tuition is $11,000 per year, or $44,000 total per child. Sorry, but with one or two kids, that’s not going to derail anything. I would have them live at home for free unless they wanted to get a job to pay rent outside the house.

HAHAHAHA! Do you know how much it costs to feed my 18-year-old college student? It is not "free" to house him, either, or help him set up a wardrobe of adult clothes (on sale, from reasonably priced stores). He wouldn't be able to walk to UMD, or even ride his bike. So there's either hours and hours of public transportation (not "free," since he's spending lots of time) or a car, with all of its expenses (including parking at UMD).

I agree that you've chosen a very strict lifestyle, and yes, possibly you can find a potential spouse who is also an adherent. But I don't think you understand the toll that that lifestyle might have on kids who haven't chosen it for themselves, especially since it is a choice you are making.

I also thought the whole idea of wage slavery seems really immature. If you hate your job? Find a different one. Enter a new field. Find something to do with your time that brings you joy and gives back to the world. If you're lucky, you have a long life ahead of you. It seems like such a waste to be miserable and stingy for the first half, and then be shiftless and poor for the second half.

"How will you buy food and a used car for your kid?" How much do you really think property taxes and groceries cost in a LCOL area?? I said I'm planning on a $3M portfolio that throws off $90K per year, on top of a paid-off house (i.e., no mortgage payment) - you don't think I can afford a used car when my kid goes to college?

As mentioned, even the biggest wild card - healthcare - should be reasonable. I currently pay around $200/month for an individual high-deductible plan. A similar family plan will obviously be more but won't break the bank. Even if I had to meet the $10K deductible every year--I basically never have to go to the doctor now, apart from routine physicals--I can comfortably pay for that out of my $90K budget. Something *really big* would have to arise for healthcare to be a real problem--and as I said, I'm not willing to throw away my life on the chance that some miniscule-probability event occurs, especially since I can always adjust as needed (start a small business, etc.).

And to the poster who said earning $50K in a business was very difficult, I'm currently earning $150K so something would be really wrong if I cannot figure out a way to earn a third of that--a mere $25/hour--when I have all the time in the world to try various ideas and no urgency related to bills.

It's not a miniscule probability event! If you have a wife and children, that's four bodies in which something can go wrong. It's more likely than not than you'll have a seriously costly event or issue for someone in your family in the next 20 years.

PS orthodontist

And it's bizarre that you think working a job is throwing your life away. Just, like, find a job you enjoy. Lots of people manage to do that. If you can't contemplate that ever being possible for you, that's super sad and indicates a mental health problem.

No, jobs suck – sorry, I’m not budging on that one. As far as jobs go, mine is decent enough. I am now 100% work-from-home, which has dramatically increased my enjoyment of the job. But it’s still boring nonsense. No one growing up dreams of Zoom calls and corporate networking BS – they settle for it because there are far worse things than getting paid $150,000 to send a few emails a day.

I want to hike and play the guitar and spend time with my loved ones.

OP, I've posted on this thread giving you a fair amount of crap, because your immature focus on accruing only wealth at the expense of all other areas of your life is gross to me.

"Jobs" absolutely suck. I agree with you there. The work you describe sounds boring, and I can absolutely understand why you'd prefer the fantasy of "financial independence" and playing guitar with your friends over the work you do now. I think it's important for you to consider that there are jobs that are not boring nonsense out there.

Your plan right now of accruing cash until you get to a place where you are comfortable scaling back is reasonable. But the idea that that's it for you, work-wise, is pretty entitled and naive. My first husband was basically a FIRE guy (before it was a thing), and it is definitely possible to save A LOT of money early on, opening up a lot of flexibility later. But what you are doing is essentially working yourself to the bone now (with no flexibility or room for fun, it seems) so that you can stop working and then continue to have no flexibility or fun. I know a lot of older adults who are on a fixed annual income of $60k and while I might be fine with that at 60 or 70 or 80, I truly would not have been interested in that life as a younger person.

[Anonymous]

OP, by your numbers, we are either halfway to FI or less than 2 years away from FI as a married couple with two children. We are less than 10 years older than you. No inheritances, living independently the whole time. We did live with my parents while I paid off student loans but moved out once those were paid off.

We budget. Our overall FI number is bigger than yours because we want to retire on a lot more than that. I’m worried about future tax policy and political changes that will eat away at our investments no matter how responsible we are.

The one bit of advice I can offer is not to let your desires to achieve financial freedom override your life. If you want to get married and/or have kids, figure out how to do that. Plan but not too much. Don’t let FI cause you to be afraid to live your life.

The day our NW crosses the 2M threshold, nothing will change and no one will know but us. We both like it that way. Same with when it crosses 4M.

[Anonymous]

Try the Frugalwoods blog, OP. They moved to a real area, not really LCOL because it's a nice part of Vermont. They intended to both be full time parents. Guess what happened, they both work part time and use daycare, because being full time parents isn't fun for everyone. Only certain personality types enjoy it, and often not the same personality type that does an aggressive FIRE.

[Anonymous]

To the OP: I’m struck by your religious-like devotion to his FIRE principles.

Have you considered joining a conservative church? The kind that emphasizes a debt-free lifestyle (google Steve Maxwell as an example).

For people who want a family and kids, it seems like the FIRE approach works best in the context of a shared religious faith. Otherwise, it’s too much sacrifice and earthly suffering. With FIRE as a shared spiritual value, that may be enough to keep the marriage going without resentment.

Women in this context aren’t likely to bring much money to the table, but there’s a greater willingness to be extremely frugal and deny themselves and their children material goods in the interest of shared family values.

I’m not FIRE and am not at all religious but know some conservative Christians who live a FIRE lifestyle by default. Just food for thought since that group may have greater appreciation for what you’re trying to do.

[Anonymous]

FIRE is mostly about lowering your target do you ca retire early

[Anonymous]

Pp from 10:54 here. I should explain that I was pursuing FIRE until I married my wife. We got married when we were both 31. She made it clear that I could have FIRE or her but not both.

We now have the most wonderful kids, good health insurance though my job, and I have accepted that I will have to work until about 60. I’m so grateful for all the good things in my life and wouldn’t have it any other way.

Two close friends just died of cancer (one at 34 and one at 45), so that’s been a good reminder that it’s important not to have too much delayed gratification (which is what I did in my Fire days), because tomorrow may not come.

[Anonymous]

I don't know why I find this thread so compelling, but something just occurred to me:

OP, you're talking about how jobs suck and you want to play guitar and hike and retire. Man you sound burned out.

Assuming everything you say is true - it's no wonder you're burned out. Do you ever let yourself let loose and enjoy yourself? Do you ever go on vacation? Do you go hiking now?

My advice to you would be to let up a little and try to enjoy the life you have now more, so it's not all deferred pleasure for a plan that may not be impossible but is difficult to achieve.

Again, assuming it's all true - you've saved an enormous amount of money in a short time. You have a cushion that buys you some freedom. Take that freedom. Use it to enjoy yourself more now. It doesn't all have to be in the future when you don't have to work at all anymore. You will be no good to anyone if you are completely burned out in your 30s. You have to pace yourself.