Nate Silver: "Go to a state school"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only data he actually cites doesn’t really support his claim.

1. Public perception of higher education generally has slipped. This doesn’t support the claim that elite colleges are harmed more than state schools.

2. Polls that say private schools are not worth the cost of public. Again this doesn’t distinguish between “elite” and non elite public. Maybe people would say “yes, I wouldn’t pay for Elon but I think MIT is worth it”

3. Harvard perception. The division along political lines suggests that this is a political issue. Republicans voters have been told to hate those east coast liberal colleges and their students. But the average Republican voter isn’t hiring anyone. It would be more interesting to see a poll along socio economic and geographic lines. Do NYC republicans have the same view? That’s more relevant than people in Alabama.

Maybe the book will have more information but otherwise this seems like a whole lot of opinion and conjecture for now.

I'm a hiring manager who has definitely had opinions of elite colleges change over the last few years. Also a graduate of an elite college myself.

Should reread his post carefully instead of jumping to conclusions. Silver speaks to everything you raised.

[Anonymous]

I am getting from this that the white folks are mad at “DEI”. It cannot be that elite anymore now that the browns and the blacks are getting in. All that riff raff ! Let us hire our own folks from the top public universities!

🤦‍♀️

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only data he actually cites doesn’t really support his claim.

1. Public perception of higher education generally has slipped. This doesn’t support the claim that elite colleges are harmed more than state schools.

2. Polls that say private schools are not worth the cost of public. Again this doesn’t distinguish between “elite” and non elite public. Maybe people would say “yes, I wouldn’t pay for Elon but I think MIT is worth it”

3. Harvard perception. The division along political lines suggests that this is a political issue. Republicans voters have been told to hate those east coast liberal colleges and their students. But the average Republican voter isn’t hiring anyone. It would be more interesting to see a poll along socio economic and geographic lines. Do NYC republicans have the same view? That’s more relevant than people in Alabama.

Maybe the book will have more information but otherwise this seems like a whole lot of opinion and conjecture for now.

I'm a hiring manager who has definitely had opinions of elite colleges change over the last few years. Also a graduate of an elite college myself.

Should reread his post carefully instead of jumping to conclusions. Silver speaks to everything you raised.

+1 similarly situated hiring manager. I need people who work hard and listen to other people’s opinions, not people who feel entitled to a top spot because their parents rode them through high school and they prepped well for standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

where you go to college for CS or Engineering doesn't matter much. same as it doesn't for physical therapy or dentistry. these are hard skills.

but the idea that people don't want to hire Harvard grads is factually incorrect. there are good stats on this, including how many are working *in the field* after graduation. the idea that there are more "coddled" ivy league grads or legacy admits or any of the rest is factually incorrect.

is it harder today than an in our day, when the child of a Scarsdale doctor with assess to a test prep class could pretty much walk into any top 10 school? yes, it is. does this impact my kid? probably. Does this make me think "kids today are all legacy admits or DEI kids" - lol, no.

But I know those parents. They are the same people who assume every new POC in the office who comes in at a level above them is a "diversity hire". Low information.

But I agree with Nate Silver that 100k a year is a not good spend for a humanities major (and it's dumb for a stem major) unless you're super rich or have one kid and it sparks joy to do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am getting from this that the white folks are mad at “DEI”. It cannot be that elite anymore now that the browns and the blacks are getting in. All that riff raff ! Let us hire our own folks from the top public universities!

🤦‍♀️

this is DCUM!

[Anonymous]

Whatever.

Nate will probably send his own kids to T20. 😂

[Anonymous]

If your choices are Colby at 90k or a great state U for 25k, go to the great state U.

News at 11!

We all know this.

But Princeton was cheaper for us than BC or Bowdoin or, yes, UMass. So my kid is going there. Do I worry about the DCUM HR execs? I do not. My kid had no problems getting summer jobs every year and had their full time offer before Xmas of this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:people come in their 40s and decide (once it's apparent their kids can't get into the same schools they did), "those schools are so OVER"

meanwhile, those grads are more diverse than ever, more on FA, less privileged, have more work experience coming into college than a generation before, and (pre this TO blip) scored higher on every metric.

plenty of us thought the Yalies (etc) from the class of 1995 were arrogant blowhards. but these kids? I'd take them every day over the previous model of an Ivy League grad

? most kids from those universities are not low income kids who worked their way through school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only data he actually cites doesn’t really support his claim.

1. Public perception of higher education generally has slipped. This doesn’t support the claim that elite colleges are harmed more than state schools.

2. Polls that say private schools are not worth the cost of public. Again this doesn’t distinguish between “elite” and non elite public. Maybe people would say “yes, I wouldn’t pay for Elon but I think MIT is worth it”

3. Harvard perception. The division along political lines suggests that this is a political issue. Republicans voters have been told to hate those east coast liberal colleges and their students. But the average Republican voter isn’t hiring anyone. It would be more interesting to see a poll along socio economic and geographic lines. Do NYC republicans have the same view? That’s more relevant than people in Alabama.

Maybe the book will have more information but otherwise this seems like a whole lot of opinion and conjecture for now.

I'm a hiring manager who has definitely had opinions of elite colleges change over the last few years. Also a graduate of an elite college myself.

Should reread his post carefully instead of jumping to conclusions. Silver speaks to everything you raised.

Should understand that one or two people on DCUM doesn’t mean anything. That’s what Nate silver would tell you. I don’t think his data necessarily leads to his conclusions.

What’s really changed over the last few years other than elite college graduate GOP politicians deciding that elite colleges were a problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am getting from this that the white folks are mad at “DEI”. It cannot be that elite anymore now that the browns and the blacks are getting in. All that riff raff ! Let us hire our own folks from the top public universities!

🤦‍♀️

In your own way you did get straight to the heart of the matter, even if not necessarily in the way you intended.

The simple reality is many diversity admits at elite colleges are nowhere close to the white or Asian admits in terms of scores and accomplishments, it does devalue the overall perspectives of the degree.

I see a resume from an Asian graduate from Harvard, I know she is going to be among the absolutely tippety top of students given that they have the highest barriers to entry to Harvard. But I don't consider resumes from a black Harvard graduate in the same light. I know, as the Harvard data confirmed, they had much lower admissions standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m confused by folks calling some Ivy League grads as coddled? Coddled by whom?

by the school. Some elite schools treat their kids as "too big to fail", and don't want to impact their student body average GPA, so they let them withdraw up to the lat week before finals, whereas in big state schools, you can't withdraw that close to finals, and you just take the F or D or whatever, and make it up in the summer. And big state schools don't hold your hand and treat you like you're "special".

You can't withdraw close to finals at Ivies either.

This thread reads like a lot of sour grapes.

Many schools (not just Ivies) care about a diverse student body. The poster who referenced "DEI " admissions as if diversity is bad, clearly has an axe to grind and doesn't understand higher ed.

I don't buy the "double Ivy" poster either. Sure, dude.

Not sure the need for attacks. Lots of great schools out there. Go with what resonates with you and where you can get in. My kid is at an Ivy for its great teaching, resources, community, opportunities and financial aid. It's been a fantastic educational experience so far.

I know someone from an elite who did just that.. withdraw a couple of weeks before finals. They let the person take the class 2x before finally getting a B.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am getting from this that the white folks are mad at “DEI”. It cannot be that elite anymore now that the browns and the blacks are getting in. All that riff raff ! Let us hire our own folks from the top public universities!

🤦‍♀️

In your own way you did get straight to the heart of the matter, even if not necessarily in the way you intended.

The simple reality is many diversity admits at elite colleges are nowhere close to the white or Asian admits in terms of scores and accomplishments, it does devalue the overall perspectives of the degree.

I see a resume from an Asian graduate from Harvard, I know she is going to be among the absolutely tippety top of students given that they have the highest barriers to entry to Harvard. But I don't consider resumes from a black Harvard graduate in the same light. I know, as the Harvard data confirmed, they had much lower admissions standards.

Good thing this is anonymous because you racially discriminate in hiring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

dp... that is not what the Harvard lawsuit showed.

I'm not saying there aren't high scoring URM, but as a whole, they are not a group that scores that high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Double Ivy grad. Hiring manager at major consulting firm. Agree with everything Silver said. Everything is spot on.

It's not the 1990s any more. Most parents with kids heading to college won't realize how much higher education has changed since their days, especially at elite schools. Even if the name of the classes look familiar, how those classes are taught is hugely different now and far more ideologically slanted.

Our best associates and analyst these days are from major state schools but there's also a place for the good and solid LACs too, so don't lose hope.

I call bullsh*t. Most consultants are clowns, but MBB is still running to recruit at HSY and will only take the very, very topped ranked at Flagship State University.

You're not understanding and are actually making the same point. Top hs students will find the same success regardless of whether they attend an elite college or a public university. The reason there are more form HSY than from Flagship U is because there are more top hs students attending there, not because they have that name on their diploma.

Well yes and no. As another poster pointed out, it’s still probably at least somewhat true that certain industries draw disproportionately from elite college. Banking, consulting, VC/Private equity. Law, but only for law school, but even then not as much as Silver implies. No one cares where you went to undergrad as a lawyer.

BUT, the pendulum has been swinging the other direction for some time now, even in these industries. Where they once only recruited from a tiny handful of colleges, now it’s more broadly. Partly because these firms have offices all over but mostly because they realize that they are missing out on a lot of talent by ignoring the top of the class at less prestigious colleges. That second trend is only going to continue.

And btw it doesn’t take anything more than average intelligence to do most of these banker, private equity, VC, and consultant jobs. Prop/quant trading does require advanced math/coding. But M&A advisory, brokerage, valuation, leveraged finance, accounting, strategy consulting all barely require algebra and/or good Excel skills. “Soft” skills are far more important in most of these jobs. Which is why these shops used to recruit heavily from “elite” colleges; they were seen as finishing schools. The students were smart AND polished. But that gap has significantly narrowed. Everyone (employers that is) knows there are tens of thousands who get rejected from elite colleges who are just as smart and accomplished and they are better off taking a top student from a “lesser” school than a middle one from an “elite” one.

+1 Google is a perfect example of this.

They only used to hire from a selected list of colleges. They actually had a list. I saw it.

A few years ago, they dropped that list, and now, they don't even require degrees for software engineers. They realized that they were indeed missing out on talent by being too restrictive. I worked along side ivy grads and state grads. You couldn't really tell the difference.

-former old timer Googler

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only data he actually cites doesn’t really support his claim.

1. Public perception of higher education generally has slipped. This doesn’t support the claim that elite colleges are harmed more than state schools.

2. Polls that say private schools are not worth the cost of public. Again this doesn’t distinguish between “elite” and non elite public. Maybe people would say “yes, I wouldn’t pay for Elon but I think MIT is worth it”

3. Harvard perception. The division along political lines suggests that this is a political issue. Republicans voters have been told to hate those east coast liberal colleges and their students. But the average Republican voter isn’t hiring anyone. It would be more interesting to see a poll along socio economic and geographic lines. Do NYC republicans have the same view? That’s more relevant than people in Alabama.

Maybe the book will have more information but otherwise this seems like a whole lot of opinion and conjecture for now.

I'm a hiring manager who has definitely had opinions of elite colleges change over the last few years. Also a graduate of an elite college myself.

Should reread his post carefully instead of jumping to conclusions. Silver speaks to everything you raised.

+1 similarly situated hiring manager. I need people who work hard and listen to other people’s opinions, not people who feel entitled to a top spot because their parents rode them through high school and they prepped well for standardized tests.

Heard something similar from a research scientist. They said that state grads made better RA than ivy grads who felt cleaning equipment was beneath them, and kept touting how they went to "some elite" college.