Pomona to go permanently test-optional

[Anonymous]

After the Supreme Court ruling on race-based admissions, most university presidents said they'd look for new ways to bring in the class they wanted. Much of that Supreme Court case focused on differences in average test scores. So... get rid of the test scores. Problem solved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

That is not true at all.
Yes,perhaps if you are talking about Bakersfield or Barstow. NOT if you are talking about any public school in well off to solidly upper middle class areas, like the well educated parents raising kids in beach communities south of LA or Marin or Pasadena, La Canada, Claremont, areas outside San Francisco, communities near San Diego with strong public high schools, etc.
the majority of those kids apply to 4year colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

Great point

The UC and CSU systems were flooded with over 1.5 million applications last year. There are not enough seats to fill even 10% of those individuals.

Now that the “bad test taker” crowd has been heard, everyone just gets a lottery ticket.

Some may call that progress. And if your kid is a bad test taker, I guess it seems that way in the short term. But for the rest of us, it’s an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

And top students would want UCLA or Berkeley and those are very tough admits. So they have to apply outside the UC system which means they need to take tests and get top scores.

That is not true…top students who want/need in state tuition will go down an extensive list that goes well beyond those two schools.

But not if they are applying to need blind schools who will cover the tuition difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After the Supreme Court ruling on race-based admissions, most university presidents said they'd look for new ways to bring in the class they wanted. Much of that Supreme Court case focused on differences in average test scores. So... get rid of the test scores. Problem solved.

They aren't test blind, just test-optional.

They do want high test scores for those who have them; entering class that submitted scores had a median 1520 SAT/34 ACT. And 91% ranked in the top 10% of their HS class, so strong academic performance is expected no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Pomona prides itself on 1/3rd of their class being valedictorians, at least in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

That is not true at all.
Yes,perhaps if you are talking about Bakersfield or Barstow. NOT if you are talking about any public school in well off to solidly upper middle class areas, like the well educated parents raising kids in beach communities south of LA or Marin or Pasadena, La Canada, Claremont, areas outside San Francisco, communities near San Diego with strong public high schools, etc.
the majority of those kids apply to 4year colleges.

Here's is Beverly Hills HS's profile for the class of 2023. https://bhhs.bhusd.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=198252&type=d&pREC_ID=744027

46% to four year colleges
44% to community college
10% not attending college (military, work, gap year, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

That is not true at all.
Yes,perhaps if you are talking about Bakersfield or Barstow. NOT if you are talking about any public school in well off to solidly upper middle class areas, like the well educated parents raising kids in beach communities south of LA or Marin or Pasadena, La Canada, Claremont, areas outside San Francisco, communities near San Diego with strong public high schools, etc.
the majority of those kids apply to 4year colleges.

https://www.conejousd.org/domain/1260

I'm not as familiar with high schools in Northern California, but this is my high school in Southern California. Thousand Oaks is a very nice, solidly UMC community of family-oriented professionals. Per the profile, 50% attend CC, 45% attend a four year, the remainder pursue other options besides college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After the Supreme Court ruling on race-based admissions, most university presidents said they'd look for new ways to bring in the class they wanted. Much of that Supreme Court case focused on differences in average test scores. So... get rid of the test scores. Problem solved.

Let's keep the racism going.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After the Supreme Court ruling on race-based admissions, most university presidents said they'd look for new ways to bring in the class they wanted. Much of that Supreme Court case focused on differences in average test scores. So... get rid of the test scores. Problem solved.

Some schools have been test optional for decades. Others started when Covid-19 hit. That all happened independent of the SC. Now some schools are going back to requiring the tests and others are going to be permanently test optional - each with their own reasons. Believe it or not there are a thousand other things universities worry over.

Imagine managing a campus with a 150 year old aquifer. Or a coal-fired power plant.

There is a whole lot more going on than recruiting and admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

That is not true at all.
Yes,perhaps if you are talking about Bakersfield or Barstow. NOT if you are talking about any public school in well off to solidly upper middle class areas, like the well educated parents raising kids in beach communities south of LA or Marin or Pasadena, La Canada, Claremont, areas outside San Francisco, communities near San Diego with strong public high schools, etc.
the majority of those kids apply to 4year colleges.

https://www.conejousd.org/domain/1260

I'm not as familiar with high schools in Northern California, but this is my high school in Southern California. Thousand Oaks is a very nice, solidly UMC community of family-oriented professionals. Per the profile, 50% attend CC, 45% attend a four year, the remainder pursue other options besides college.

Our school further down the coast is 71% + 4-year colleges, 13% + 2-year CC ... what's most amazing is that the majority of the remaining 25% or so would probably be Top 10 - 25% of their class in just about every other school in the State of California. The Top 5 public HS are just absolute powerhouses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

That is not true at all.
Yes,perhaps if you are talking about Bakersfield or Barstow. NOT if you are talking about any public school in well off to solidly upper middle class areas, like the well educated parents raising kids in beach communities south of LA or Marin or Pasadena, La Canada, Claremont, areas outside San Francisco, communities near San Diego with strong public high schools, etc.
the majority of those kids apply to 4year colleges.

Here's is Beverly Hills HS's profile for the class of 2023. https://bhhs.bhusd.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=198252&type=d&pREC_ID=744027

46% to four year colleges
44% to community college
10% not attending college (military, work, gap year, etc.)

Beverly Hills high is not as competitive academically as some other schools in Southern California. Same with Thousand Oaks High. It’s considered a weaker high school in the conejo valley. Southern California schools are very diverse and serve a variety of student populations, including many first gen kids and students whose parents immigrated recently. Beverly Hills High has a very diverse population.

Parents who did grow up in California went to UCs or Cal States and so that’s where their kids will go as well. Most are not even familiar with many of the colleges on the east coast or in the south. The Bay Area has different dynamics BTW.

At my kid’s high achieving So Cal school (I posted upthread) about 65% go to a 4 year college. Many of the parents are from different parts of the country and so value education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After the Supreme Court ruling on race-based admissions, most university presidents said they'd look for new ways to bring in the class they wanted. Much of that Supreme Court case focused on differences in average test scores. So... get rid of the test scores. Problem solved.

Some schools have been test optional for decades. Others started when Covid-19 hit. That all happened independent of the SC. Now some schools are going back to requiring the tests and others are going to be permanently test optional - each with their own reasons. Believe it or not there are a thousand other things universities worry over.

Imagine managing a campus with a 150 year old aquifer. Or a coal-fired power plant.

There is a whole lot more going on than recruiting and admissions.

Uh huh. Except we know that in America today, and especially in the progressive hothouse of academia, everything is always all about race race race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

Don’t disagree, but at least kids can spend their time on those efforts vs prepping for standardized tests. Just pointing out the error in PP argument.

The kind of student who's competitive for Caltech wouldn't need to spend more than a week preparing to get a 1500+