Pomona to go permanently test-optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

Great point

The UC and CSU systems were flooded with over 1.5 million applications last year. There are not enough seats to fill even 10% of those individuals.

Now that the “bad test taker” crowd has been heard, everyone just gets a lottery ticket.

Some may call that progress. And if your kid is a bad test taker, I guess it seems that way in the short term. But for the rest of us, it’s an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

And top students would want UCLA or Berkeley and those are very tough admits. So they have to apply outside the UC system which means they need to take tests and get top scores.

That’s the point.

The cackling, self-satisfied crowd who think ACT and SAT tests are going away for good are already setting sights on AP test scores.

This level of personal animus against anonymous strangers seems unhinged.

-Parent of a Pomona student who submitted test scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).

What was your test score(s)?

What were the test scores of your child/ren?

Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.

Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.

The real proof is how many of those accepted no-calculus kids actually graduate rather than drop it. They would need vast amounts of help just to stay afloat.

Not at all, the freshman sequence is already relearning what was taught (miss taught) in HS with a different impetus. You don't find people who already there, you find people who will take off.

Yes, definitely, if you are “relearning what was taught” but you are at the very low baseline of “never had calculus in the first place” you will absolutely struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).

What was your test score(s)?

What were the test scores of your child/ren?

Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.

Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.

The real proof is how many of those accepted no-calculus kids actually graduate rather than drop it. They would need vast amounts of help just to stay afloat.

Not at all, the freshman sequence is already relearning what was taught (miss taught) in HS with a different impetus. You don't find people who already there, you find people who will take off.

Yes, definitely, if you are “relearning what was taught” but you are at the very low baseline of “never had calculus in the first place” you will absolutely struggle.

Except that there were generations of CalTech students who did exactly that and started college with Apostol, no less. Of course they aren’t seeking students who didn’t get any calc, they’re just affirming that these are students they can educate and will admit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).

What was your test score(s)?

What were the test scores of your child/ren?

Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.

Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.

The real proof is how many of those accepted no-calculus kids actually graduate rather than drop it. They would need vast amounts of help just to stay afloat.

Not at all, the freshman sequence is already relearning what was taught (miss taught) in HS with a different impetus. You don't find people who already there, you find people who will take off.

Yes, definitely, if you are “relearning what was taught” but you are at the very low baseline of “never had calculus in the first place” you will absolutely struggle.

Except that there were generations of CalTech students who did exactly that and started college with Apostol, no less. Of course they aren’t seeking students who didn’t get any calc, they’re just affirming that these are students they can educate and will admit.

Calculus was a de facto prerequisite for admission as far back as the early 1980s. So whatever “generations” you’re talking about are truly ancient. Moreover, the graduation rate before 1980 was under 65%, which shows that those previous “generations” who came in without calculus suffered a high attrition rate — and the new generation will too, unless they dumb things down a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).

What was your test score(s)?

What were the test scores of your child/ren?

My kid has. 1580 and 10 APs with 5s and she is not applying to Caltech. Didn’t discover her interest in math until junior year so no awards or projects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.

Cal tech is test blind

DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.

There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).

What was your test score(s)?

What were the test scores of your child/ren?

My kid has. 1580 and 10 APs with 5s and she is not applying to Caltech. Didn’t discover her interest in math until junior year so no awards or projects.

Women were 32% of the applicants and 53% of those admitted - huge advantage to be a woman - she should go for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

I just checked with my brother who teaches math at a top private in the Bay area. He said that pre-pandemic, everyone took the ACT and/or SAT multiple time, with lots of tutoring and coaching for a year or two for many students. He said that it is definitely less than a fourth of his students who test. He said that many kids worry that the test prep takes away from studying. When everyone was doing it, that was ok. But now the kids doing testing and prep are at a disadvantage in class, and the response is not to test. By the way, he's a huge supporter of the change. He said he guesses that, within a year or two, almost no one at his school will test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

I just checked with my brother who teaches math at a top private in the Bay area. He said that pre-pandemic, everyone took the ACT and/or SAT multiple time, with lots of tutoring and coaching for a year or two for many students. He said that it is definitely less than a fourth of his students who test. He said that many kids worry that the test prep takes away from studying. When everyone was doing it, that was ok. But now the kids doing testing and prep are at a disadvantage in class, and the response is not to test. By the way, he's a huge supporter of the change. He said he guesses that, within a year or two, almost no one at his school will test.

This is smart, it was all an arms race for nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

NP: The PP is correct. Here is a report from 2018, however, but the data is still relevant, even after the pandemic: https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/Statewide%20NSC%20Report%20Final%20Online.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

Really? That is surprising.

NP: The PP is correct. Here is a report from 2018, however, but the data is still relevant, even after the pandemic: https://edpolicyinca.org/sites/default/files/Statewide%20NSC%20Report%20Final%20Online.pdf

Here is a link to the data at the county/city level: https://www.ppic.org/blog/geography-of-college-enrollment-in-california/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.

20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.

If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.

The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.

You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.

I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.

And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.

CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.

That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.

I have a junior in a Los Angeles public school. What people aren't factoring in here is that often even at the best of the public schools in LA / Santa Monica Malibu & Beverly Hills, let alone the rest of CA, only up to a max of 30% of the graduating class is going onto a 4 yr undergrad degree.

I’m at an affluent suburban school just outside of LA, and 65% go to a 4 year, and 35% go to community college. This is common even in high achieving schools in CA. Most of the schools in my area have similar numbers. I notice the stats are ticking upward….even more kids choosing our local community college than pre Covid.

At our school, a third go to UCs/CSU, a third go to community college, and a third go to private or public colleges outside of California. And that last group is the one taking the SATs.

[Anonymous]

Is that community college with the goal of transferring to four year, or with the goal of “that’s all”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is that community college with the goal of transferring to four year, or with the goal of “that’s all”?

No, it’s CC with intention of transferring to a UC.