Please share your ideas for SOLUTIONS to the middle east crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question is to those of you with true expertise on the middle east. Can the leaders in the middle east ever truly accept Israel existing in any form-even a 2 state solution or do most want Israel eliminated? I saw an interview where an Israeli expert said according to her contacts in the moderate Arab world, most want Israel to eliminate Hamas. Is that true?

We are now finding out a lot of these Universities with explosions of antisemitism (may have) received undisclosed massive donations from places like Qatar. Is the true agenda to get the Jews out of the middle east completely?

No the other states in the region want Israel to accept the Palestinians back, treat them with human dignity and return their property or compensate for the property taken(fair market price). If this had been done 45 years ago there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah. It is a myth that all the states want to destroy Israel. It keep the status quo and relieve any moral accountability on the part of Israel.

It is only very recently that any of Israel’s neighbors have accepted the right of Israel to exist (eg Egypt). Some still do not, that isn’t a myth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right to return. Treat property rights the same way we treat property stolen during WWII. Israel brags about being a democracy, take them up on it- one person one vote

I asked before, what does the right to return mean? Who does it apply to?

Refugees registered by the UN. Fortunately lots of families kept their deeds, so recovering the houses they were forced out of should be easy

I foresee some problems with this, because the definition of refugee as it has been applied to Palestinians is different to the way it is applied generally. For example, the 1951 Refugee Convention says that once you have citizenship elsewhere, you can’t be a refugee. But under the UNRWA mandate, Palestinians can be citizens of another country and still be refugees, and can be 4 or 5 generations removed from the original refugee. Giving back property is going to be hard when the people living there now are highly unlikely to be the people who lived there in 1948. It seems that you’d be creating a new refugee crisis and a new theft of property if that happened. Also all of that ignores the way the state of Israel was created - by UN Resolution. The people living there now didn’t literally steal the land from Palestinians, the state was created in a way that may now seem wrong but at the time was a perfectly normal way to divide lands that were formerly parts of empires. See also Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc.

Anything other than a right of return legitimizes ethnic cleansing

What do you do when right of return is also ethnic cleansing? Two people can't live in the same house. So what is your solution to that?

I guess that’s what happens when you found a country by driving off the inhabitants and then giving away their homes.

Like.. the USA?

[Anonymous]

One state solution with equal political and civil rights. Israel rebuilds Gaza. Terrorism is a crime and is punished— regardless of who carries it out, so Hamas will share cells with violent settlers. West Bank gets a Quebec-like semi-autonomy where presently displaced refugees are allowed to return, and the current laws allowing any Jewish person to emigrate to Israel stay on the books. Neighbors recognize the new arrangement or no longer receive U.S military or other aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bring back the Ottoman Empire.

For real. Even the Roman Empire will do.

The Palestinians were deeply stupid to reject the Oslo Accords. It would have given them an independent state with Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank, including a land corridor. The missing 3 percent would be compensated by Israeli lands. All the terrible settlers would be long gone by now.

Instead, they rejected it and launched the 2nd Intifada. That violence destroyed the Labour Party in Israel. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by right wingers. And Israel became significantly less compromising about anything.

Palestinians have always had terrible leaders - PLO, Fatah, Hamas, all of them They revel in their grievance but never offer a solution. It's an absolutely useless political culture.

I don't really see a way out in the foreseeable future. No chance of a one state after 10/7, the worst atrocity against Jews since the Holocaust. And Israel very rightfully has significant security concerns about a fully independent Hamas state on their borders.

Netanyahu will be gone because Israel is a democracy. But Palestinian leadership is the big problem. Corrupt or Extremist. Choose your adventure. But neither can really be worked with. And after everything that's happened this month, there's no space for some kind of compromising, practical leadership to magically save the day.

So, I think the Ottoman Empire remains the best solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question is to those of you with true expertise on the middle east. Can the leaders in the middle east ever truly accept Israel existing in any form-even a 2 state solution or do most want Israel eliminated? I saw an interview where an Israeli expert said according to her contacts in the moderate Arab world, most want Israel to eliminate Hamas. Is that true?

We are now finding out a lot of these Universities with explosions of antisemitism (may have) received undisclosed massive donations from places like Qatar. Is the true agenda to get the Jews out of the middle east completely?

No the other states in the region want Israel to accept the Palestinians back, treat them with human dignity and return their property or compensate for the property taken(fair market price). If this had been done 45 years ago there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah. It is a myth that all the states want to destroy Israel. It keep the status quo and relieve any moral accountability on the part of Israel.

It is only very recently that any of Israel’s neighbors have accepted the right of Israel to exist (eg Egypt). Some still do not, that isn’t a myth.

40+ years does not equal "very recently"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Also, if so many people favor a 2 state solution why is "From the river to the sea" becoming a cliche chant that everyone must have at their Pro-Palestinian protests. That is about wiping out Israel completely.

Probably, and I’m just spitballing here after having watched right wingers turn peaceful demonstrations violent for years, it’s not organic but some bad actors.

Because I don’t see anyone in power chanting that. It’s pretty easy to shout what you want in a crowd and get everyone all lathered up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let the Middle East decide the outcome. If they want to go to war, have at it. The winner gets the spoils. Historically, thats how the world works

That's exactly what happened in 48 and 67.
A bunch of Arab countries attacked Israel and assumed they'd win. They didn't. Israel won and the whole world has been b-ching about it since.

Israel attacked first in 1967. That's a basic fact

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bring back the Ottoman Empire.

For real. Even the Roman Empire will do.

The Palestinians were deeply stupid to reject the Oslo Accords. It would have given them an independent state with Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank, including a land corridor. The missing 3 percent would be compensated by Israeli lands. All the terrible settlers would be long gone by now.

Instead, they rejected it and launched the 2nd Intifada. That violence destroyed the Labour Party in Israel. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by right wingers. And Israel became significantly less compromising about anything.

Palestinians have always had terrible leaders - PLO, Fatah, Hamas, all of them They revel in their grievance but never offer a solution. It's an absolutely useless political culture.

I don't really see a way out in the foreseeable future. No chance of a one state after 10/7, the worst atrocity against Jews since the Holocaust. And Israel very rightfully has significant security concerns about a fully independent Hamas state on their borders.

Netanyahu will be gone because Israel is a democracy. But Palestinian leadership is the big problem. Corrupt or Extremist. Choose your adventure. But neither can really be worked with. And after everything that's happened this month, there's no space for some kind of compromising, practical leadership to magically save the day.

So, I think the Ottoman Empire remains the best solution.

Problem. The Ottoman Empire no longer exists and the Ottomans were hated by the Arabs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right to return. Treat property rights the same way we treat property stolen during WWII. Israel brags about being a democracy, take them up on it- one person one vote

I asked before, what does the right to return mean? Who does it apply to?

Refugees registered by the UN. Fortunately lots of families kept their deeds, so recovering the houses they were forced out of should be easy

I foresee some problems with this, because the definition of refugee as it has been applied to Palestinians is different to the way it is applied generally. For example, the 1951 Refugee Convention says that once you have citizenship elsewhere, you can’t be a refugee. But under the UNRWA mandate, Palestinians can be citizens of another country and still be refugees, and can be 4 or 5 generations removed from the original refugee. Giving back property is going to be hard when the people living there now are highly unlikely to be the people who lived there in 1948. It seems that you’d be creating a new refugee crisis and a new theft of property if that happened. Also all of that ignores the way the state of Israel was created - by UN Resolution. The people living there now didn’t literally steal the land from Palestinians, the state was created in a way that may now seem wrong but at the time was a perfectly normal way to divide lands that were formerly parts of empires. See also Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc.

Anything other than a right of return legitimizes ethnic cleansing

What do you do when right of return is also ethnic cleansing? Two people can't live in the same house. So what is your solution to that?

I guess that’s what happens when you found a country by driving off the inhabitants and then giving away their homes.

Like.. the USA?

Anyone living in an Indian reservation has US citizenship and the right to vote. The same is not true of the people Israel expelled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Also, if so many people favor a 2 state solution why is "From the river to the sea" becoming a cliche chant that everyone must have at their Pro-Palestinian protests. That is about wiping out Israel completely.

Probably, and I’m just spitballing here after having watched right wingers turn peaceful demonstrations violent for years, it’s not organic but some bad actors.

Because I don’t see anyone in power chanting that. It’s pretty easy to shout what you want in a crowd and get everyone all lathered up.

Not really. It's a maximalist bargaining positiom that matches the current maximalist bargaining position of the Israeli government. Neither are very helpful, honest or realistic but they are twinned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's always been the two state solution. But both sides have to believe in it.

Why is it the only option? A one state democracy can't be a Jewish state because Palestinians will equal or outnumber them. A one state solution without full democracy is Apartheid. Therefore the two state solution is all that is left.

Neither Netanyahu nor Hamas believes in it. We were making progress with the Oslo Accords and its opponents ruined it. Right wingers assassinated Yitzak Rabin and then they deliberately weakened Arafat and Fatah. Netanyahu liked Hamas because nobody could force him to negotiate with Hamas.

This accurately summarized the issue in 200 words. Bravo.

In other words, the solution to the problem is to eliminate the extremists - both Likud and Hamas. They need to be cut out of the equation and then crushed.

dayenu

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right to return. Treat property rights the same way we treat property stolen during WWII. Israel brags about being a democracy, take them up on it- one person one vote

I asked before, what does the right to return mean? Who does it apply to?

Refugees registered by the UN. Fortunately lots of families kept their deeds, so recovering the houses they were forced out of should be easy

I foresee some problems with this, because the definition of refugee as it has been applied to Palestinians is different to the way it is applied generally. For example, the 1951 Refugee Convention says that once you have citizenship elsewhere, you can’t be a refugee. But under the UNRWA mandate, Palestinians can be citizens of another country and still be refugees, and can be 4 or 5 generations removed from the original refugee. Giving back property is going to be hard when the people living there now are highly unlikely to be the people who lived there in 1948. It seems that you’d be creating a new refugee crisis and a new theft of property if that happened. Also all of that ignores the way the state of Israel was created - by UN Resolution. The people living there now didn’t literally steal the land from Palestinians, the state was created in a way that may now seem wrong but at the time was a perfectly normal way to divide lands that were formerly parts of empires. See also Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc.

Anything other than a right of return legitimizes ethnic cleansing

What do you do when right of return is also ethnic cleansing? Two people can't live in the same house. So what is your solution to that?

I guess that’s what happens when you found a country by driving off the inhabitants and then giving away their homes.

Like.. the USA?

Well the Germans did Lebensraum….so it must be okay for Israel to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right to return. Treat property rights the same way we treat property stolen during WWII. Israel brags about being a democracy, take them up on it- one person one vote

I asked before, what does the right to return mean? Who does it apply to?

Refugees registered by the UN. Fortunately lots of families kept their deeds, so recovering the houses they were forced out of should be easy

I foresee some problems with this, because the definition of refugee as it has been applied to Palestinians is different to the way it is applied generally. For example, the 1951 Refugee Convention says that once you have citizenship elsewhere, you can’t be a refugee. But under the UNRWA mandate, Palestinians can be citizens of another country and still be refugees, and can be 4 or 5 generations removed from the original refugee. Giving back property is going to be hard when the people living there now are highly unlikely to be the people who lived there in 1948. It seems that you’d be creating a new refugee crisis and a new theft of property if that happened. Also all of that ignores the way the state of Israel was created - by UN Resolution. The people living there now didn’t literally steal the land from Palestinians, the state was created in a way that may now seem wrong but at the time was a perfectly normal way to divide lands that were formerly parts of empires. See also Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc.

Anything other than a right of return legitimizes ethnic cleansing

What do you do when right of return is also ethnic cleansing? Two people can't live in the same house. So what is your solution to that?

I guess that’s what happens when you found a country by driving off the inhabitants and then giving away their homes.

Like.. the USA?

Anyone living in an Indian reservation has US citizenship and the right to vote. The same is not true of the people Israel expelled

Ok but can their descendants come to your house if that was where their ancestors had lived, can they have your house? Will you pay them for it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1948 lines, un peacekeepers on the border

I just looked this up. Palestine was three noncontiguous pieces of land. Not a recipe for success. Same with Gaza and the West Bank today.

[Anonymous]

Israel is a wealthy nation. Everyone has their price. A massive investment program in Gaza to essentially buy off the population would whither the support for Hammas and radical Islam.