If your school limits students to 8-10 applications

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"OMG. Plenty of people have said why. It is considered fair to the student body overall to not allow a few stand-out students to hoard acceptances. "

OMG back to you.

How does it help the rest of the student body at GDS that a student applying to 15 professional pilot programs at schools like University of North Dakota, Southern Utah State, or Kansas State at Salina is limited to 10 of these schools? Odds are that not a single other student at GDS is submitting an application to any of those not well regarded schools in flyover country. This student's applications have ZERO bearing on the other seniors in their class. So, why should they be limited to just 10 applications and whose interests are served by limiting them?

If a middle class student needing merit wants to study art but has not won any major art awards and therefore has no way to gauge whether they actually have talent applies to 8 schools for a BFA and 4 schools ranked 100 and below for a major in psychology, how does that harm any other senior at GDS? Students applying to art programs usually need to do two tracks, one for art and one for a fall back major because you have no idea whether your portfolio will appeal to the art department's admission committee. In what way does limiting this kid's chances of being accepted somewhere that they can afford HELP the rest of the class at GDS who have no interest in these schools?

GDS has raised the cap to 12.
UCs count as one school because of the single application process--so technically, a GDS senior could be applying to a lot of schools, far more than 12, if the student wants to apply to all of the UCs.
Exceptions in the number of applications can be made for students applying to highly competitive arts programs. (BTW, GDS generally has a very good track record of sending their serious arts students to excellent art colleges.)
Get your facts straight before you rant. As a GDS parent, I have a lot of issues with GDS, but the number of college applications is not one of them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If you are thoughtful about your list and not shotgunning a bunch of reach school there's really no need to apply to more than 8-10 schools.

^ This, in spades.

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

/FYI both my kids ED admits so this did not affect us, so no accusations please. But right it right and this is wrong.

People are free to not send their kids to GDS or any other private school that does this. Our school encourages finding the right fit and there’s no way all ivies are the right fit. They’re still able to fill the grade, so it’s clearly not a big enough problem for most families.

You completely avoid answering the question. To repeat:

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

It seems like you can’t grasp that people have a different opinion. My kid’s school decides to do this to help kids focus on fit. And probably to limit the number of apps from the school to help the whole student body, not just the top students. And parents are generally fine with it. I’m okay with my schools making this decision for my kid - if I felt differently, I’d send my kid to another school. If you care so much about an individualist culture, you’re free to homeschool your kid.

It seems like you can’t simply answer the question.

Why should you get to decide or the school get to decide and not family or the student?

Also, how does limiting the number of apps help the whole student body? That makes absolutely no sense.

And how is a family supposed to know that this is even going to matter when they are choosing a high school?

NP here. DC is at an independent school that limits to 12. This is to allow students to choose colleges wisely and to spend time tailoring essays to each specific school. My educated guess is that students at independent schools tend to apply more frequently to SLACs than public school kids, which means that their applications will be reviewed more in depth, so the quality of essays matter much more than applying to a large state school. Limiting the number of apps helps the student body because colleges do limit the number of acceptances for each HS. Only the kids who really see themselves attending a particular college will apply there and will not be competing with stronger applicants who are applying just to see if they can get in, but will likely turn that college down. This doesn't seem, btw, to affect the stronger students, who get into great schools. Given that 100% of students at our HS attend college, this approach doesn't appear to hurt admissions.
Honestly, any student and/or parent looking at HSs should be asking questions about college admissions processes.

Still doesn't answer why it should not be up to the student and their family.

While I understand your point about colleges accepting only a certain number from each HS, and you admit it is a zero sum game, it seems this policy does not help "the student body as a whole" but rather helps some but hurts others somewhat randomly. Certainly no more fairly and probably less so since it is a limitation.

There is no justification for it. Let students apply where they want. Why is that so hard?

Many people here disagree with you.

Why is that so hard?

But no one can say why it is fair the student and their family can't decide instead of an arbitrary rule?

Why is THAT so hard?

Answering again, and for the last time: Because it isn't fair, even though you like it. That's a preference, not a justification.

Other people think it *is* fair. Again, you just disagree. You have a preference for no restriction just as others prefer the limit.

Why is it fair? Why do I have to ask this so many times and why won't you answer?

I can answer why my position is fair: because it directly affects the student, especially if they are seeking merit aid or applying to elite colleges, or both.

OMG. Plenty of people have said why. It is considered fair to the student body overall to not allow a few stand-out students to hoard acceptances. It is also considered fair to the counseling staff to not overburden them/neglect other students by catering to students who want to apply to a ridiculous number of schools. The school cares about the student body overall, not one whiny parent. You could also just ask your individual school why they have the rule. Maybe they have other considerations that go into it.

The part in bold above - not only is that ridiculous, that an outstanding student can "hoard" acceptances, but that explicitly preventing an outstanding student from getting acceptances for the benefit of a less qualified student - if that is not unfair by definition, I don't know what is.

At least you admit it. I give you credit for that.

[Anonymous]

We encountered this with one of the schools my children attended it is outrageous and there are no legal grounds for them to do this unless explicitly in the private school contract

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are thoughtful about your list and not shotgunning a bunch of reach school there's really no need to apply to more than 8-10 schools.

^ This, in spades.

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

/FYI both my kids ED admits so this did not affect us, so no accusations please. But right it right and this is wrong.

People are free to not send their kids to GDS or any other private school that does this. Our school encourages finding the right fit and there’s no way all ivies are the right fit. They’re still able to fill the grade, so it’s clearly not a big enough problem for most families.

You completely avoid answering the question. To repeat:

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

It seems like you can’t grasp that people have a different opinion. My kid’s school decides to do this to help kids focus on fit. And probably to limit the number of apps from the school to help the whole student body, not just the top students. And parents are generally fine with it. I’m okay with my schools making this decision for my kid - if I felt differently, I’d send my kid to another school. If you care so much about an individualist culture, you’re free to homeschool your kid.

It seems like you can’t simply answer the question.

Why should you get to decide or the school get to decide and not family or the student?

Also, how does limiting the number of apps help the whole student body? That makes absolutely no sense.

And how is a family supposed to know that this is even going to matter when they are choosing a high school?

NP here. DC is at an independent school that limits to 12. This is to allow students to choose colleges wisely and to spend time tailoring essays to each specific school. My educated guess is that students at independent schools tend to apply more frequently to SLACs than public school kids, which means that their applications will be reviewed more in depth, so the quality of essays matter much more than applying to a large state school. Limiting the number of apps helps the student body because colleges do limit the number of acceptances for each HS. Only the kids who really see themselves attending a particular college will apply there and will not be competing with stronger applicants who are applying just to see if they can get in, but will likely turn that college down. This doesn't seem, btw, to affect the stronger students, who get into great schools. Given that 100% of students at our HS attend college, this approach doesn't appear to hurt admissions.
Honestly, any student and/or parent looking at HSs should be asking questions about college admissions processes.

Still doesn't answer why it should not be up to the student and their family.

While I understand your point about colleges accepting only a certain number from each HS, and you admit it is a zero sum game, it seems this policy does not help "the student body as a whole" but rather helps some but hurts others somewhat randomly. Certainly no more fairly and probably less so since it is a limitation.

There is no justification for it. Let students apply where they want. Why is that so hard?

Many people here disagree with you.

Why is that so hard?

But no one can say why it is fair the student and their family can't decide instead of an arbitrary rule?

Why is THAT so hard?

Answering again, and for the last time: Because it isn't fair, even though you like it. That's a preference, not a justification.

Other people think it *is* fair. Again, you just disagree. You have a preference for no restriction just as others prefer the limit.

Why is it fair? Why do I have to ask this so many times and why won't you answer?

I can answer why my position is fair: because it directly affects the student, especially if they are seeking merit aid or applying to elite colleges, or both.

OMG. Plenty of people have said why. It is considered fair to the student body overall to not allow a few stand-out students to hoard acceptances. It is also considered fair to the counseling staff to not overburden them/neglect other students by catering to students who want to apply to a ridiculous number of schools. The school cares about the student body overall, not one whiny parent. You could also just ask your individual school why they have the rule. Maybe they have other considerations that go into it.

The part in bold above - not only is that ridiculous, that an outstanding student can "hoard" acceptances, but that explicitly preventing an outstanding student from getting acceptances for the benefit of a less qualified student - if that is not unfair by definition, I don't know what is.

At least you admit it. I give you credit for that.

You can pull your kid out of private school if you don't like the policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We encountered this with one of the schools my children attended it is outrageous and there are no legal grounds for them to do this unless explicitly in the private school contract

There are no legal grounds for a lot of policies--requiring parental attendance at certain events, school dress codes, required summer reading, for example. But, go head, try to file a lawsuit...where do you think that will get you?

[Anonymous]

"As a GDS parent, I have a lot of issues with GDS, but the number of college applications is not one of them."

Except you're point helps the "no limits" argument. The fact that GDS recognized the harm that a 10 app limit can create and therefore increased the baseline number to 10, and makes exceptions for legitimate situations like art school applications means that a hard line limit of 10 isn't a great idea.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s unfair for the richest kid with parents w world famous names who wanted to gather up all the acceptances. So unfair. They should sue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We encountered this with one of the schools my children attended it is outrageous and there are no legal grounds for them to do this unless explicitly in the private school contract

There are no legal grounds for a lot of policies--requiring parental attendance at certain events, school dress codes, required summer reading, for example. But, go head, try to file a lawsuit...where do you think that will get you?

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are thoughtful about your list and not shotgunning a bunch of reach school there's really no need to apply to more than 8-10 schools.

^ This, in spades.

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

/FYI both my kids ED admits so this did not affect us, so no accusations please. But right it right and this is wrong.

People are free to not send their kids to GDS or any other private school that does this. Our school encourages finding the right fit and there’s no way all ivies are the right fit. They’re still able to fill the grade, so it’s clearly not a big enough problem for most families.

You completely avoid answering the question. To repeat:

Whether or not that is true, why should you get to decide that, or any hs administration?

Shouldn't a student and their family be free to make that decision?

It seems like you can’t grasp that people have a different opinion. My kid’s school decides to do this to help kids focus on fit. And probably to limit the number of apps from the school to help the whole student body, not just the top students. And parents are generally fine with it. I’m okay with my schools making this decision for my kid - if I felt differently, I’d send my kid to another school. If you care so much about an individualist culture, you’re free to homeschool your kid.

It seems like you can’t simply answer the question.

Why should you get to decide or the school get to decide and not family or the student?

Also, how does limiting the number of apps help the whole student body? That makes absolutely no sense.

And how is a family supposed to know that this is even going to matter when they are choosing a high school?

NP here. DC is at an independent school that limits to 12. This is to allow students to choose colleges wisely and to spend time tailoring essays to each specific school. My educated guess is that students at independent schools tend to apply more frequently to SLACs than public school kids, which means that their applications will be reviewed more in depth, so the quality of essays matter much more than applying to a large state school. Limiting the number of apps helps the student body because colleges do limit the number of acceptances for each HS. Only the kids who really see themselves attending a particular college will apply there and will not be competing with stronger applicants who are applying just to see if they can get in, but will likely turn that college down. This doesn't seem, btw, to affect the stronger students, who get into great schools. Given that 100% of students at our HS attend college, this approach doesn't appear to hurt admissions.
Honestly, any student and/or parent looking at HSs should be asking questions about college admissions processes.

Still doesn't answer why it should not be up to the student and their family.

While I understand your point about colleges accepting only a certain number from each HS, and you admit it is a zero sum game, it seems this policy does not help "the student body as a whole" but rather helps some but hurts others somewhat randomly. Certainly no more fairly and probably less so since it is a limitation.

There is no justification for it. Let students apply where they want. Why is that so hard?

Many people have answered your question, you just disagree with the answer.
It comes down to schools have their reasons for the policy. You are welcome to disagree and go to a different school or lobby for change. I do think a well-prepared parent with research on the changes in admissions trends could make a good case to raise the number from 8-10 to say 12-14 but OP doesn't seem to want to do that she just wants to whine.

Incorrect. No one has answered the question why it should be the decision of the school and not the family. They just keep repeating the policy and why they like it.

Please note that this policy exists primarily at tony private schools where the guidance counselors don't want to have to hear from the parents that one kid got all the slots that their kid "deserved". At least the PP prior to you had the courage to admit it.

It's an unfair policy by its design. Let all kids apply and let the best win.

NP in this chain and I’ll attempt to answer your question directly such that you can hear it.

The reason that the number of college applications should be the decision of the private school and not the individual families is because the school has an obligation to the entire community of the school to optimize college admission results for the entire graduating class. That is a primary reason why many families are enrolled. Limiting applications ends up with better overall results for reasons stated numerous times in this discussion.

Have you ever heard of “The Tragedy of the Commons”? A limited resource without regulation on use can be destroyed by individuals trying to maximize their own benefit. I think the college application process is currently experiencing this, with the ever escalating cycle of more and more applications because of less and less certainty. The solution isn’t to have private schools increase their allowed applications, it is for more/all schools to implement limits. This used to be a “natural” limit when each application required serious effort (typing on the paper application you wrote to receive).

But the Common App and colleges have no interest in limiting applications. It’s pure profit. $75 bucks a pop from applicants, but only paying a reader $21/hr? Even if they only process 4 applications per hour, that’s $250 profit. Who’s really benefiting by unlimited applications? It’s not the students.

[Anonymous]

Correction:

Except you're point helps the "no limits" argument. The fact that GDS recognized the harm that a 10 app limit can create and therefore increased the baseline number to 12, and makes exceptions for legitimate situations like art school applications means that a hard line limit of 10 isn't a great idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"As a GDS parent, I have a lot of issues with GDS, but the number of college applications is not one of them."

Except your point helps the "no limits" argument. The fact that GDS recognized the harm that a 10 app limit can create and therefore increased the baseline number to 10, and makes exceptions for legitimate situations like art school applications means that a hard line limit of 10 isn't a great idea.

Increase to 12 is reasonable. You are advocating it seems for virtually unlimited applications. And the rare exception for the arts - or flight school- is not a good reason to lift the cap for everyone. Hard cases make for bad law.

[Anonymous]

"Increase to 12 is reasonable. You are advocating it seems for virtually unlimited applications. And the rare exception for the arts - or flight school- is not a good reason to lift the cap for everyone. Hard cases make for bad law."

Common App already limits you to 20. Nobody is arguing for unlimited applications.

Why apply a rule that should only pertain to a tiny share of students in each senior class (because these are the only people competing for coveted acceptances from the most elite schools) to the entire class? In a class with 500 students, only the top 50 (10%) are going to bother applying to the schools that you're worried will get oversubscribed by a few hoarders with high stats. You're making the other 450 live with the negative consequences of how the 10 application limit might impact on them even though nobody, including the valedictorian with the best shot at Harvard, cares where they apply.

An alternative would be to limit seniors to only 10 applications to the top 25 ranked colleges. You could apply to as many schools that aren't HSYP, Duke, Cal, etc... as you like since nobody is worried about being squeezed out by your classmate at the other 250 most popular/sought after schools.

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP who used the pilot major example. I noticed that you failed to address the core question I raised, which is how exactly does denying the aspiring pilot the chance to apply to more than 10 schools impact positively on the rest of the students in their HS class? Can you name even one way in which any senior in that graduating class benefits by this student not applying to University of North Dakota? Conversely, how does this aspiring pilot's application to UND harm the chances of a Princeton acceptance for the top ranked student in the class? I don't see how the UND application is relevant in either direction. If that's the case, why subject the aspiring pilot to the limit?

[Anonymous]

"Hard cases make bad law" pertains to situations where the law works appropriately for the vast majority even though there might be a few unusual situations where it doesn't and a bad outcome results.

Here, the law only benefits the very small share of top students who have a chance at admission at an extremely selective college that will only take 1-2 students from that high school. For the other 95% of the class, the law benefits them in no way whatsoever since they were never going to apply, much less get accepted, to Harvard. And not only does it not benefit them, it could hurt their prospects ("bad outcome") since some of these students might need multiple merit offers, or they might have low GPAs and test scores that make it hard to get admitted to the more affordable state schools that don't practice holistic admissions. By the "hard cases make bad law" logic, the rule should be flipped (no limit on applications) so that the overwhelming majority of HS students would benefit from it.

[Anonymous]

Glad to hear GDS increased to 12 applications.

And to the PP who is asking others to explain limit, I agree with you. I still think it is important to be thoughtful in your list (and our child ended up at 12) though.

I think a better policy is to strongly encourage a range (like 8-12) vs setting a limit. It allows parents/kids to hear the real message (of why no more than 12) and not get fixated on the limit.