Dinner party in Europe: Americans look older, more tired, are more unhealthy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really idealized Europe, then I lived in Italy for a year. I still think that some fundamental things are better than here - gun violence being the absolute number one factor that would make me prefer to be there. It was so amazing to send my kids to school, or let them walk around the city, and know that there was basically no chance of them being shot randomly.

Probably the second most amazing thing was all the walking we did in our daily lives, because we lived near an urban center. We ate lots of great food all the time and didn't gain weight, just because we didn't have a car and we walked to do every errand. And as soon as we got back here we (well, ok, I) gained about 5lbs, either from the food or the different exercise.

But, we were there as relatively privileged Americans, and I could see that for people who actually spend their lives there, there are huge trade-offs. Italy's economy is pretty stagnant (and some of these issues are true in many countries in Europe). There are very few opportunities for young people (like under 40), even with a good education. Related to that I think, people aren't having children. They have a huge older population that needs care and is going to need more - where will it come from? They have an increasing number of immigrants doing service jobs (if they are lucky), but they are totally marginalized and treated with racism and derision - much more than here, I think. It's very, very difficult for them to become citizens, so that marginalization often continues into the next generation.

Then there's the culture. Of course it's beyond beautiful. At the same time, I found it to be rather oppressive. Italians have so many opinions about the right way to do things (eat, dress, behave). Of course, they eat, dress, and behave beautifully - but I missed the more impulsive or spontaneous culture of the US. I also really missed the incredible diversity we have here. I missed seeing people of all colors and backgrounds doing all kinds of different things. Not romanticizing and of course there are terrible issues here related to racism, but you just sense that there is greater mobility and opportunity here - for everybody. (Obviously, there is also so much less of a social safety net here, so it's a big trade-off.)

And (to be frank, and I'm not proud of this) I missed our big old washing machines and dryers, our wide straight even roads, and more generally the wide open spaces we have here.

But still, the gun problem here might be enough to send us back to Europe at some point.

I lived in Italy as a native for 20 years and another 25 here. This is very accurate in my view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm European and I feel the need to add my thoughts here. In the US it seems acceptable in certain places (DMV) to be grossly overweight, almost as a sign of success, but in Europe this isn't the case at all. It's a sign of indulgence and perhaps even greed, which are not signifiers of intellectual, cultural or ethically successful people, just greedy people.

Obesity has increased in Europe, exponentially over the past 20-30 years. That is also true, especially amongst the poorer members of society.

I have more to say but I don't want to start a fight.

NO ONE in the US thinks obesity is a sign of success.

It is statistically associated in both places with lower income and less education.

That “interpretation” of what you have observed is entirely baseless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These were friends of friends who live in Europe. They were French, German, Portuguese, and Swedish. Most people were 55+. They were decently well-off but not rich. Many were already retired.

Throughout the whole night, nobody compulsively looked at their phones. The only phone use was to take pictures and play music.
Not a single person was overweight.
Everyone looked 10-20 years younger. And yes one of them smoked, they all drank, they all spent time in the sun.
Everyone was vibrant and happy.
Everyone had so much energy and positivity, much more than 30-40something Americans. Nobody was tired.
Nobody complained of ailments or back problems or excessive medications.

I asked how everyone lived so well and looked so great. They said it was because they had universal healthcare, less stress, great food, and didnt feel beaten down by work throughout their lives.

America is doing it wrong.

France can no longer sustain the low retirement age. They have serious financial problems and have to raise the minimum retirement age.

Greece has ongoing serious financial issues. Everyone wants to work government jobs, i.e. get paid for not working. Those with hustle only want payment in cash. Everyone wants to retire at 40. No one pays taxes. This model is not sustainable.

You forgot to add Italy to your list. My uncles, aunts, cousins all live there. I'm from there. Those cousins of mine are lucky to have the jobs they have, which are low-level municipal office jobs or blue collar jobs which were basically handed down to them by their fathers or uncles. Try being an outsider looking for a halfway decent job, very difficult. My uncle was a mail carrier for his entire working career. He was looked upon by his friends as one of the lucky ones that got such a coveted and secure job. There's very little in the way of entrepreneurship in much of Europe. It's a different mentality. You are born into your socio-economic class and there's a high chance that this is exactly where you'll stay. So if you know this already at the age of let's say 25, why bother working hard to try to achieve anything greater - it's likely never going to happen so just go on vacation for the entire month of August. It's not like its going to kill your career, or that all of your peers are leapfrogging over you in their careers while you lounge around on the beaches of Positano. No because they're all right there on the chaise lounge right next to you.

Trust me when I tell you, life there (most of Europe) is not that great if you're anything below upper middle class. At least in the US you can be born to a single mother, living in a shelter, and somehow make it out and make something of yourself.

Um, I don’t know about you, but they ONLY reason I try and “leapfrog” in my career is SO THAT I can someday lounge on the beaches of Positano (or wherever). I don’t WANT to work. I work because I have to. If I could just have less and do less, and enjoy good food and nature, I would. Unfortunately I was born into and scammed into this chemical-laden capitalist hellscape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: So, after one dinner party, you decided ALL Europeans are healthy and ALL Americans are tired out?

+1. And yet here you are.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been to many dinners like that in America. But I know what you are getting at because I have overweight and over stressed distant family members. The American behavior you suggest is part culture, part choice.

[Anonymous]

My father outlived all his German cousins. He moved to the US in his 20s. It was American healthcare that saved him from heart failure in his 80s and his living moderately that allowed him to live into his 90s when the cousins all died from heart disease by their early 80s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm European and I feel the need to add my thoughts here. In the US it seems acceptable in certain places (DMV) to be grossly overweight, almost as a sign of success, but in Europe this isn't the case at all. It's a sign of indulgence and perhaps even greed, which are not signifiers of intellectual, cultural or ethically successful people, just greedy people.

Obesity has increased in Europe, exponentially over the past 20-30 years. That is also true, especially amongst the poorer members of society.

I have more to say but I don't want to start a fight.

NO ONE in the US thinks obesity is a sign of success.

It is statistically associated in both places with lower income and less education.

That “interpretation” of what you have observed is entirely baseless.

Exactly. You can never be too thin or too rich here.

[Anonymous]

I'm a thin European and the real reason is that fatness is severely penalized in Europe, as it is in Asia. If you are overweight in Europe, in addition to being excluded from the dating scene, you are publicly shamed and the vast majority of companies will not hire you. In America, you can be fat and still get married, have a job, and support yourself. Forget about being morbidly obese in Europe, you die. There are no mobility scooters, you can't fit in most cars, you can't take public transportation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My father outlived all his German cousins. He moved to the US in his 20s. It was American healthcare that saved him from heart failure in his 80s and his living moderately that allowed him to live into his 90s when the cousins all died from heart disease by their early 80s.

And yet German life expectancy is significantly higher than that in the US. I’m glad your father had good healthcare but he is only one datapoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm European and I feel the need to add my thoughts here. In the US it seems acceptable in certain places (DMV) to be grossly overweight, almost as a sign of success, but in Europe this isn't the case at all. It's a sign of indulgence and perhaps even greed, which are not signifiers of intellectual, cultural or ethically successful people, just greedy people.

Obesity has increased in Europe, exponentially over the past 20-30 years. That is also true, especially amongst the poorer members of society.

I have more to say but I don't want to start a fight.

You know fat old Santa Claus isn't a real person, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cheerios in the states contain chemicals not permitted in Cheerios in Europe.

Here is a crazy idea. Stop eating processed “food” for breakfast. Maybe that’s the problem here.

You can have a healthy lifestyle in the US if you try to and stop buying shelf stable garbage in the middle of the grocery store.

Can I eat muesli?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a thin European and the real reason is that fatness is severely penalized in Europe, as it is in Asia. If you are overweight in Europe, in addition to being excluded from the dating scene, you are publicly shamed and the vast majority of companies will not hire you. In America, you can be fat and still get married, have a job, and support yourself. Forget about being morbidly obese in Europe, you die. There are no mobility scooters, you can't fit in most cars, you can't take public transportation.

You can also be fat and become the president.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cheerios in the states contain chemicals not permitted in Cheerios in Europe.

Here is a crazy idea. Stop eating processed “food” for breakfast. Maybe that’s the problem here.

You can have a healthy lifestyle in the US if you try to and stop buying shelf stable garbage in the middle of the grocery store.

The portion sizes also need to be reduced. Combos and upsizing are going to kill us.

[Anonymous]

[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These were friends of friends who live in Europe. They were French, German, Portuguese, and Swedish. Most people were 55+. They were decently well-off but not rich. Many were already retired.

Throughout the whole night, nobody compulsively looked at their phones. The only phone use was to take pictures and play music.
Not a single person was overweight.
Everyone looked 10-20 years younger. And yes one of them smoked, they all drank, they all spent time in the sun.
Everyone was vibrant and happy.
Everyone had so much energy and positivity, much more than 30-40something Americans. Nobody was tired.
Nobody complained of ailments or back problems or excessive medications.

I asked how everyone lived so well and looked so great. They said it was because they had universal healthcare, less stress, great food, and didnt feel beaten down by work throughout their lives.

America is doing it wrong.

France can no longer sustain the low retirement age. They have serious financial problems and have to raise the minimum retirement age.

Greece has ongoing serious financial issues. Everyone wants to work government jobs, i.e. get paid for not working. Those with hustle only want payment in cash. Everyone wants to retire at 40. No one pays taxes. This model is not sustainable.

You forgot to add Italy to your list. My uncles, aunts, cousins all live there. I'm from there. Those cousins of mine are lucky to have the jobs they have, which are low-level municipal office jobs or blue collar jobs which were basically handed down to them by their fathers or uncles. Try being an outsider looking for a halfway decent job, very difficult. My uncle was a mail carrier for his entire working career. He was looked upon by his friends as one of the lucky ones that got such a coveted and secure job. There's very little in the way of entrepreneurship in much of Europe. It's a different mentality. You are born into your socio-economic class and there's a high chance that this is exactly where you'll stay. So if you know this already at the age of let's say 25, why bother working hard to try to achieve anything greater - it's likely never going to happen so just go on vacation for the entire month of August. It's not like its going to kill your career, or that all of your peers are leapfrogging over you in their careers while you lounge around on the beaches of Positano. No because they're all right there on the chaise lounge right next to you.

Trust me when I tell you, life there (most of Europe) is not that great if you're anything below upper middle class. At least in the US you can be born to a single mother, living in a shelter, and somehow make it out and make something of yourself.

How would you know that life in most of Europe isn’t so great if you are below upper middle class? Based on some relatives in Italy? Why are there always people on DCUM who think the fact they have a few relatives in some random European country makes them an expert? It’s like me saying I have cousins in Mongolia so I’m qualified to opine on all of Asia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cheerios in the states contain chemicals not permitted in Cheerios in Europe.

Here is a crazy idea. Stop eating processed “food” for breakfast. Maybe that’s the problem here.

You can have a healthy lifestyle in the US if you try to and stop buying shelf stable garbage in the middle of the grocery store.

The point is that Europeans can buy garbage but not worry about the deleterious health impacts because their junk food isn’t poisoned.