Disappointed by TJ decision?

[Anonymous]

If you look at the student mobility numbers, 18 of 19 kids that left the school are from the two new classes. That number will probably increase by years end.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:107:13654734424185:105:NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

[Anonymous]

Don't forget 15 students joined as a part of 10th grade admission too. so it should be the number shown in the link + 15 new admits for class of 2025 (sorry no citations for the numbers)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you look at the student mobility numbers, 18 of 19 kids that left the school are from the two new classes. That number will probably increase by years end.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:107:13654734424185:105:NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

Well, yes. It is always the case, and has been in years past, that nearly all of the students who leave TJ are freshmen and/or sophomores. That's not something that has changed with the new admissions process.

I've been honestly stunned that the number hasn't been higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at the student mobility numbers, 18 of 19 kids that left the school are from the two new classes. That number will probably increase by years end.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:107:13654734424185:105:NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

Well, yes. It is always the case, and has been in years past, that nearly all of the students who leave TJ are freshmen and/or sophomores. That's not something that has changed with the new admissions process.

I've been honestly stunned that the number hasn't been higher.

Although new admits may not have had as much outside enrichment, they seem stronger in terms of ability and than in the past when people were getting because of test buying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

Well said!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

Do you have a source on this "TJ math teachers found?" I understand that kids in Algebra II in fairfax high in 9th grade may be in too deep, but these are not the same as kids at TJ, privilege or not.

The previous TJ students, whether they struggled or not, were on path to complete more and higher levels of math and science. The current group is also subject to your mathematical maturity claim. Maybe thats why they were in algebra in 8th instead of 7th or 6th.

The mathematical pathways are not as malleable as your definition of algebra success however, and 1/3 of the students are now not capable of achieving some of the higher tracks.

If DEI is the goal over academic achievement, just say that, but lets stop pretending that reduced Math acceleration is somehow beneficial for the number 1 STEM school in the united states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at the student mobility numbers, 18 of 19 kids that left the school are from the two new classes. That number will probably increase by years end.

https://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:107:13654734424185:105:NO:0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P0_EDSL:300,0

Well, yes. It is always the case, and has been in years past, that nearly all of the students who leave TJ are freshmen and/or sophomores. That's not something that has changed with the new admissions process.

I've been honestly stunned that the number hasn't been higher.

Although new admits may not have had as much outside enrichment, they seem stronger in terms of ability and than in the past when people were getting because of test buying.

How do you know "they seem stronger?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

So? An extremely small percentage of TJ students take those courses anyway regardless of their level of math advancement. TJ is not impacted significantly by a somewhat smaller number of students being eligible to take them.

I think that's a difficult assertion to make, and comes entirely from your perception of their advancement. Indeed, as a result of taking their foundational high school math courses at TJ, rather than at their middle school or offsite somewhere, they may end up as stronger math students down the line and less likely to experience "math burnout", which is common among hyper-advanced TJ kids. TJ Math teachers report this phenomenon with regularity.

Talking about the cohort as being "driven to a level of STEM achievement" in the way you're doing it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the TJ environment. No students are being held back as individuals because of the reduced number of hyper-advanced students in math. And the group that isn't necessarily as advanced in math still has a staggering number of options to create outstanding research despite a few options being closed to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

Do you have a source on this "TJ math teachers found?" I understand that kids in Algebra II in fairfax high in 9th grade may be in too deep, but these are not the same as kids at TJ, privilege or not.

The previous TJ students, whether they struggled or not, were on path to complete more and higher levels of math and science. The current group is also subject to your mathematical maturity claim. Maybe thats why they were in algebra in 8th instead of 7th or 6th.

The mathematical pathways are not as malleable as your definition of algebra success however, and 1/3 of the students are now not capable of achieving some of the higher tracks.

If DEI is the goal over academic achievement, just say that, but lets stop pretending that reduced Math acceleration is somehow beneficial for the number 1 STEM school in the united states.

DP. There's an insistence that these two goals are mutually exclusive. They're not, and the insistence that they are, no matter how florid your language, is racist. Full stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

Do you have a source on this "TJ math teachers found?" I understand that kids in Algebra II in fairfax high in 9th grade may be in too deep, but these are not the same as kids at TJ, privilege or not.

The previous TJ students, whether they struggled or not, were on path to complete more and higher levels of math and science. The current group is also subject to your mathematical maturity claim. Maybe thats why they were in algebra in 8th instead of 7th or 6th.

The mathematical pathways are not as malleable as your definition of algebra success however, and 1/3 of the students are now not capable of achieving some of the higher tracks.

If DEI is the goal over academic achievement, just say that, but lets stop pretending that reduced Math acceleration is somehow beneficial for the number 1 STEM school in the united states.

DP. There's an insistence that these two goals are mutually exclusive. They're not, and the insistence that they are, no matter how florid your language, is racist. Full stop.

The goal of the admission changes, in part, was to increase underrepresented minority enrollment. These admissions changes accomplished that. Many understand that large URM population centers in fairfax are in pyramids with traditionally underrepresented MS for TJ admissions and often lack comparitively accelerated Math tracks. This results in admissions of students who are below the previous math rigor as highlighted regarding 8th grade algebra admits. The schools overall long term advanced achievement levels suffer as well. 1 to 2 levels of math behind previous years.

They, Diversity and Academic Achievement are not mutually exclusive as Im sure the new admits are very smart students. But one is being favored more than previously and the result is kids with lower performance indicators, and in many cases of no fault of their own. These are just stats, not racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

So? An extremely small percentage of TJ students take those courses anyway regardless of their level of math advancement. TJ is not impacted significantly by a somewhat smaller number of students being eligible to take them.

I think that's a difficult assertion to make, and comes entirely from your perception of their advancement. Indeed, as a result of taking their foundational high school math courses at TJ, rather than at their middle school or offsite somewhere, they may end up as stronger math students down the line and less likely to experience "math burnout", which is common among hyper-advanced TJ kids. TJ Math teachers report this phenomenon with regularity.

Talking about the cohort as being "driven to a level of STEM achievement" in the way you're doing it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the TJ environment. No students are being held back as individuals because of the reduced number of hyper-advanced students in math. And the group that isn't necessarily as advanced in math still has a staggering number of options to create outstanding research despite a few options being closed to them.

DP. Are you sure about the bolded? If the number of students interested in and eligible to take certain classes falls below a specific threshold, will they stop offering these classes altogether? If TJ absolutely will still offer all of the super advanced math and physics classes, then I agree with your point. If they need to cut down on their offerings due to a lack of kids able to enroll in the classes, then the highly advanced students are being held back by the less advanced cohort.

Also, what is the FCPS plan for the kids who are highly accelerated in math, need multiple years of post AP level math and physics, but didn't get admitted to TJ? If the solution is to expand online post-AP classes or expand the GMU Dual enrollment program, then everything is fine. If the plan is to shrug their shoulders and tell the kids that they should have either gotten into TJ or not accelerated so much, that's a big problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please remember TJ is a STEM oriented school. And while M is for Math, it also underpins the STE in a big way.

These results show that some of the best STEM applicants are no longer being accepted.

This may not have anything to do with admission changes. Remember we had a pandemic that greatly affected learning?

True and lower income schools typically don't have the same opportunities for acceleration, not to mention the outside enrichment that many post about like AoPS, RSM etc etc. This chart if anything indicates that selection is more equitable. A gifted kid from a low-income area may be a complete genius but lacked many of the same opportunities that parents at wealthy schools take for granted. To me this is a good sign that our tax dollars are going to support all gifted residents not just the scion of the wealthy.

If the desire for an elite STEM school is equity, then yes, it appears the new process has done that.

If the desire is to accept the demonstrably best STEM students, then no, the new system doesn’t do that. And arguing that kids with accelerated math are privileged isn’t what I’m interested in arguing. I’m just pointing out the fact that math underpins advanced STEM topics and that this cohort is not as advanced as years past.

And we aren’t talking about the same group of kids where it may be questionable to take 7th grade algebra even though they scored a 95 on the IAAT because sometime acceleration isn’t the best answer for kids come 10th grade. We are talking about kids that are perfectly suited for Calc in 10th and will continue to drive the cohort even deeper into complex math and science through 11th and 12th.

Those numbers were basically halved and replaced by kids that can never achieve that, based on timeline alone. There may be a genius in the bunch that is taking algebra in 8th grade in a lower SES school, but arguably there was probably a genius in the group of kids that had already completed Algebra II.

The desire was largely to create an environment where students at every school within the catchment area felt as though they had a realistic chance of getting into TJ. That's unquestionably a good thing and should increase application numbers in the long run, which would drive up the strength of the applicant pool.

The only way that the new process fails to drive up the application numbers is if large groups who are presently part of the demographic no longer choose to apply because of a perception of diminished prestige. Honestly, if that happens, good riddance because there were too many families for whom that was the prime motivator for TJ to begin with.

The problem is that those neglected segments of catchment area are currently not capable of producing students that can drive the cohort to the previous level of STEM achievement. Unless those schools start accelerating their students to the same level within the county. And if anyone has been paying attention, that is definitely not part of the plan for most title I/non-AAP ES/MS.

1/3 of the class is no longer eligible to take Electrodynamics, Quantum Physics and Optics. And in general the math accumen of the peer group has been lowered significantly.

These are simple facts, and if the desire is to put DEI before achievement, then this has succeeded.

Add to that, that many top performers, regardless of privilege, may not want to apply knowing the cohort is mathematically and by extension scientifically weaker.

TJ admissions grew complacent and didn't change for many years. Consequently, a huge TJ prep industry emerged that advertised prominently that they hired former admissions officials, essay readers, etc. who gave a big advantage to preppers. One back door they found was to accelerate in math. If you knew going into elementary school that your kid might apply to TJ then you accelerated in math on weekends and summers to give them an edge. TJ math teachers found that many of the "advanced" math freshmen were ill-prepared.

Kids develop at different rates. It requires a certain mathematical maturity to really understand algebra that some kids don't achieve until later.

Algebra is not rocket science. The fact that your kid takes it earlier does not make them more intelligent. Other kids will find the class easy and get a better foundation if they take it later,
particularly at TJ.

Do you have a source on this "TJ math teachers found?" I understand that kids in Algebra II in fairfax high in 9th grade may be in too deep, but these are not the same as kids at TJ, privilege or not.

The previous TJ students, whether they struggled or not, were on path to complete more and higher levels of math and science. The current group is also subject to your mathematical maturity claim. Maybe thats why they were in algebra in 8th instead of 7th or 6th.

The mathematical pathways are not as malleable as your definition of algebra success however, and 1/3 of the students are now not capable of achieving some of the higher tracks.

If DEI is the goal over academic achievement, just say that, but lets stop pretending that reduced Math acceleration is somehow beneficial for the number 1 STEM school in the united states.

Wow, this is some of the most elitist drivel I’ve ever read. You acknowledge that kids could be brilliant but lack access to super accelerated math, but you still think those kids don’t deserve a chance at TJ admission. Incredible. It’s a freaking public school. You want to use your money & prestige to get (even more of a) advantage, go somewhere else.