Where "full pay" really helps?

[Anonymous]

once caveat to above, if financial package is the best (on a relative basis per your financial situation) at the ED, you should attend that school

[Anonymous]

cmon folks pls don’t bring in morality. A system that inherently favors the elite does not align with my moral compass either. Crystal clear that financial variables allow for whatever contract you believe exists with ED to be null and void. So apply ED to top choice, but send out all of your EA and RD apps beforehand. Then sit back in April and review financial aspects of all opportunities. Best strategy for middle class (or below) folks. I know that any opinion that if widely accepted could potentially jeopardize the one remaining hook for the non-URM prep school kid will come under heavy fire on this thread, but in the words of the great IceT, “don’t hate the playa..”

This might be the dumbest, most entitled shit I've read on DCUM (and I like Ice T). ED is for full pay families who don't need to compare financial packages. If you aren't one of those families, don't sign the contract and don't try to use a hook that wasn't meant for you. You may indeed get away with it, but you'll screw the ED families in the classes behind your kid (not that you give a shit). These schools are getting so many applications from qualified students, that they can afford to deny students from high schools that don't honor ED contracts.

[Anonymous]

If your child applied ED (and you and they agreed to pull other applications if accepted), and your child does not pull their other applications, you have screwed over future graduates of that school class of 2024). This is why the counselors will not allow this. Trust me, the college will remember.

That being said, out child was accepted ED this year, and we had to put down a deposit within a couple of weeks, so I am not certain I believe OP is being truthful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

cmon folks pls don’t bring in morality. A system that inherently favors the elite does not align with my moral compass either. Crystal clear that financial variables allow for whatever contract you believe exists with ED to be null and void. So apply ED to top choice, but send out all of your EA and RD apps beforehand. Then sit back in April and review financial aspects of all opportunities. Best strategy for middle class (or below) folks. I know that any opinion that if widely accepted could potentially jeopardize the one remaining hook for the non-URM prep school kid will come under heavy fire on this thread, but in the words of the great IceT, “don’t hate the playa..”

This might be the dumbest, most entitled shit I've read on DCUM (and I like Ice T). ED is for full pay families who don't need to compare financial packages. If you aren't one of those families, don't sign the contract and don't try to use a hook that wasn't meant for you. You may indeed get away with it, but you'll screw the ED families in the classes behind your kid (not that you give a shit). These schools are getting so many applications from qualified students, that they can afford to deny students from high schools that don't honor ED contracts.

my god listen to yourself “ED is for full pay families”

no dog in this fight but so many on DCUM are woke until it doesn’t suite their agenda

[Anonymous]

my god listen to yourself “ED is for full pay families” no dog in this fight but so many on DCUM are woke until it doesn’t suite their agenda

What are you talking about? Applying ED means, this is my 1st choice school and I've run the NPC calculator and can & will pay the cost of attendance. That family doesn't need to compare packages between schools. How is that "woke."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

my god listen to yourself “ED is for full pay families” no dog in this fight but so many on DCUM are woke until it doesn’t suite their agenda

What are you talking about? Applying ED means, this is my 1st choice school and I've run the NPC calculator and can & will pay the cost of attendance. That family doesn't need to compare packages between schools. How is that "woke."

because the interpretation you outline, which is an extremely favorable interpretation for the wealthy “full pay” kid, is discriminatory in nature. Distilling a financial situation down to an NPC calculator allows the wealthy to erroneously call the process “fair and square”. Big not peeps

[Anonymous]

Let’s be honest. The family that pays $80,000 subsidizes the family that pays half. Colleges want and need a mix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let’s be honest. The family that pays $80,000 subsidizes the family that pays half. Colleges want and need a mix.

but why should this kid not be able to apply ED?

[Anonymous]

NPC calculators are static while life is fluid. Just ask the 8000+ SVB employees who got pink slips out of the blue on Froday

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s be honest. The family that pays $80,000 subsidizes the family that pays half. Colleges want and need a mix.

but why should this kid not be able to apply ED?

What kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NPC calculators are static while life is fluid. Just ask the 8000+ SVB employees who got pink slips out of the blue on Froday

Don’t be daft. If parents lose a job or security, that’s the exception that allows you to break your contract or seek additional financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore. So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.

My standards? I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards). My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations.

The list of blind schools where full pay does not help is easily googled, and yes they are mostly top schools.

PP's example is a development admit, which comes though an entirely different office than admissions office first, similar to an athletic recruit.

In the 568 litigation it is suggested that development admits are themselves a violation of need blind policies, which makes sense.

No, it does not. That persons ability to pay tuition is not considered. Suppose it is a nephew of a donor with a very different economic situation? I know it seems like the same thing but it isn’t. It’s not even done in the same office.

I appreciate the nuance but you can appreciate the overall point. The 568 complaint doesn’t really argue that the schools directly violate the need blind policy (except maybe with waitlists) but that many of their other practices violate it, such as favoring development kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

we will evaluate after she gets into UC B - sounds like you had the luxury of not having to compare financial implications - congrats to you

NP. Your approach is antithetical to the ED agreement. If you didn't like the ED school's cost (per NPC before applying or per actual package in-hand), the time to withdraw is now, regardless of other options. The ED school doesn't become more affordable when coupled with a UCB rejection. When is your ED school's enrollment deadline?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

we will evaluate after she gets into UC B - sounds like you had the luxury of not having to compare financial implications - congrats to you

NP. Your approach is antithetical to the ED agreement. If you didn't like the ED school's cost (per NPC before applying or per actual package in-hand), the time to withdraw is now, regardless of other options. The ED school doesn't become more affordable when coupled with a UCB rejection. When is your ED school's enrollment deadline?

The ED school is free to sue. If they’re confident the contract will withstand scrutiny, they should sue. I think there is a reason that there is zero case law related to ED enforcement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

we will evaluate after she gets into UC B - sounds like you had the luxury of not having to compare financial implications - congrats to you

NP. Your approach is antithetical to the ED agreement. If you didn't like the ED school's cost (per NPC before applying or per actual package in-hand), the time to withdraw is now, regardless of other options. The ED school doesn't become more affordable when coupled with a UCB rejection. When is your ED school's enrollment deadline?

The ED school is free to sue. If they’re confident the contract will withstand scrutiny, they should sue. I think there is a reason that there is zero case law related to ED enforcement

I am the PP that you responded to. I agree completely that no college is going to sue. ED is not a legally-enforceable contract.

I am not a fan of ED's existence. The name sharing angle might violate the Sherman Act if colleges are still doing that. And more generally, the gist is anticompetitive. But, if people are going to avail themselves of the (perhaps perceived) acceptance rate benefit, they need to follow the rules of the agreement: withdrawing other apps upon acceptance unless the school's offered package is not affordable. Anything less is unethical.

Everyone should know going in that ED does not permit the student to wait for other packages and back out merely because the ED school's package is less than some other school's merit offer.