Where "full pay" really helps?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it’s common sense - what do institutions and the privileged elite want you to believe? because who benefits? I agree that not being able to apply ED and not being able to fully evaluate all options available to a student is discriminatory in nature. Apply everywhere and evaluate options based on relative affordability

Why? We're full pay but DC still gets just the one ED shot. Why is it fair that you get unlimited ED opportunities?

nothing said anywhere about multiple ED applications

Right but the ED agreement is if you apply ED & are accepted, that you’ve agreed you’ll attend the ED school and you withdraw all other apps. You dont just continue on with applications to see which is the best deal. That’s the entire point of ED — it’s binding.

It’s a contract, and they are binding so long as parties are willing to go to court. Do you think any school would be willing to sue to enforce a contract that on its face is probably violates consumer and competition laws in most states? If they win, the contract stands, if they lose, good bye ED in that state they sue. The risk seems somewhat asymmetrical

NP. ED is not legally binding. No school will sue the student. However, there are other possible ramifications (sharing student's name with other schools per the ED agreement, causing trouble with the high school and high school counselor, etc.).

Is any contract truly legally binding when a minor signs it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC's guidance counselors and schools have said from the start that they absolutely would not send HS & transcript data to schools after you've been accepted ED or if you tried to apply to a second school ED. I guess some other schools and many families have no problem breaking this "binding agreement" regarding ED?

Maybe one area public schools have an advantage

No regard for an agreement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it’s common sense - what do institutions and the privileged elite want you to believe? because who benefits? I agree that not being able to apply ED and not being able to fully evaluate all options available to a student is discriminatory in nature. Apply everywhere and evaluate options based on relative affordability

Why? We're full pay but DC still gets just the one ED shot. Why is it fair that you get unlimited ED opportunities?

nothing said anywhere about multiple ED applications

Right but the ED agreement is if you apply ED & are accepted, that you’ve agreed you’ll attend the ED school and you withdraw all other apps. You dont just continue on with applications to see which is the best deal. That’s the entire point of ED — it’s binding.

It’s a contract, and they are binding so long as parties are willing to go to court. Do you think any school would be willing to sue to enforce a contract that on its face is probably violates consumer and competition laws in most states? If they win, the contract stands, if they lose, good bye ED in that state they sue. The risk seems somewhat asymmetrical

NP. ED is not legally binding. No school will sue the student. However, there are other possible ramifications (sharing student's name with other schools per the ED agreement, causing trouble with the high school and high school counselor, etc.).

Is any contract truly legally binding when a minor signs it?

Parents sign.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore. So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.

My standards? I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards). My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore. So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.

My standards? I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards). My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations.

The list of blind schools where full pay does not help is easily googled, and yes they are mostly top schools.

PP's example is a development admit, which comes though an entirely different office than admissions office first, similar to an athletic recruit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore. So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.

My standards? I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards). My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations.

The list of blind schools where full pay does not help is easily googled, and yes they are mostly top schools.

PP's example is a development admit, which comes though an entirely different office than admissions office first, similar to an athletic recruit.

In the 568 litigation it is suggested that development admits are themselves a violation of need blind policies, which makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC's guidance counselors and schools have said from the start that they absolutely would not send HS & transcript data to schools after you've been accepted ED or if you tried to apply to a second school ED. I guess some other schools and many families have no problem breaking this "binding agreement" regarding ED?

Maybe one area public schools have an advantage

Do tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore. So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.

My standards? I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards). My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations.

The list of blind schools where full pay does not help is easily googled, and yes they are mostly top schools.

PP's example is a development admit, which comes though an entirely different office than admissions office first, similar to an athletic recruit.

In the 568 litigation it is suggested that development admits are themselves a violation of need blind policies, which makes sense.

No, it does not. That persons ability to pay tuition is not considered. Suppose it is a nephew of a donor with a very different economic situation? I know it seems like the same thing but it isn’t. It’s not even done in the same office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

we will evaluate after she gets into UC B - sounds like you had the luxury of not having to compare financial implications - congrats to you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

How much more time does your DC have left to enroll at the ED school? Im not a fan of ED but once you can see that financial aid is not affordable, the apps should be pulled. Time to fish or cut bait.

I could be recalling incorrectly, but when my kid applied ED, I thought the contract we signed said if accepted, we would withdraw all other applications. I don’t recall there being room to compare financial aid or wait for why we perceived to be a better deal somewhere else. I suspect you are in breach of contract if you are holding our for “relative affordability.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

It is not appropriate to keep applications open after you get in ED.
That’s the whole point of ED.
Merit aid is not a factor.
If you have a change in financial status from time of application to ED admission then you need to let the ED school know and request to change to non binding status but to keep other applications open without discussing with ED school goes against ED contracts and the students admission may be withdrawn.

we will evaluate after she gets into UC B - sounds like you had the luxury of not having to compare financial implications - congrats to you

This person is a troll. No high school counselor is going to allow someone accepted ED to keep other applications “open.” None.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it’s common sense - what do institutions and the privileged elite want you to believe? because who benefits? I agree that not being able to apply ED and not being able to fully evaluate all options available to a student is discriminatory in nature. Apply everywhere and evaluate options based on relative affordability

Why? We're full pay but DC still gets just the one ED shot. Why is it fair that you get unlimited ED opportunities?

nothing said anywhere about multiple ED applications

Right but the ED agreement is if you apply ED & are accepted, that you’ve agreed you’ll attend the ED school and you withdraw all other apps. You dont just continue on with applications to see which is the best deal. That’s the entire point of ED — it’s binding.

It’s a contract, and they are binding so long as parties are willing to go to court. Do you think any school would be willing to sue to enforce a contract that on its face is probably violates consumer and competition laws in most states? If they win, the contract stands, if they lose, good bye ED in that state they sue. The risk seems somewhat asymmetrical

There is also the moral piece. They signed an agreement saying you would do something and you got an advantage, yet they don’t want to live up to their part of the deal? I guess some people don’t care about their good name or that they are screwing over everyone from their school that comes after.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

How much more time does your DC have left to enroll at the ED school? Im not a fan of ED but once you can see that financial aid is not affordable, the apps should be pulled. Time to fish or cut bait.

I could be recalling incorrectly, but when my kid applied ED, I thought the contract we signed said if accepted, we would withdraw all other applications. I don’t recall there being room to compare financial aid or wait for why we perceived to be a better deal somewhere else. I suspect you are in breach of contract if you are holding our for “relative affordability.”

Of course this is the situation. It’s just someone who doesn’t mind going against their word and setting a terrible example for their kid. Bully for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it’s common sense - what do institutions and the privileged elite want you to believe? because who benefits? I agree that not being able to apply ED and not being able to fully evaluate all options available to a student is discriminatory in nature. Apply everywhere and evaluate options based on relative affordability

Why? We're full pay but DC still gets just the one ED shot. Why is it fair that you get unlimited ED opportunities?

nothing said anywhere about multiple ED applications

Right but the ED agreement is if you apply ED & are accepted, that you’ve agreed you’ll attend the ED school and you withdraw all other apps. You dont just continue on with applications to see which is the best deal. That’s the entire point of ED — it’s binding.

It’s a contract, and they are binding so long as parties are willing to go to court. Do you think any school would be willing to sue to enforce a contract that on its face is probably violates consumer and competition laws in most states? If they win, the contract stands, if they lose, good bye ED in that state they sue. The risk seems somewhat asymmetrical

There is also the moral piece. They signed an agreement saying you would do something and you got an advantage, yet they don’t want to live up to their part of the deal? I guess some people don’t care about their good name or that they are screwing over everyone from their school that comes after.

cmon folks pls don’t bring in morality. A system that inherently favors the elite does not align with my moral compass either. Crystal clear that financial variables allow for whatever contract you believe exists with ED to be null and void. So apply ED to top choice, but send out all of your EA and RD apps beforehand. Then sit back in April and review financial aspects of all opportunities. Best strategy for middle class (or below) folks. I know that any opinion that if widely accepted could potentially jeopardize the one remaining hook for the non-URM prep school kid will come under heavy fire on this thread, but in the words of the great IceT, “don’t hate the playa..”