Where "full pay" really helps?

[Anonymous]

ED (if white/Asian not Questbridge and obviously FGLI) is how need blind schools make sure they end up w 50 pct of their class needing no aid. Private school also

[Anonymous]

Schools that don't give any merit aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Full pay here, but my very high stats (but otherwise unhooked) kid was rejected both ED1 and ED2 this cycle.

that stinks! so sorry. would you share the schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any need aware school ED it should help

^ or not ED

My full pay kid was rejected at several schools where she was 75% (or very slightly below) stats wise. Applied EA, deferred then wait-listed. Didn't seem to help her even a bit.

Why would you apply ED to what sounds like a safety based on stats?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any need aware school ED it should help

^ or not ED

My full pay kid was rejected at several schools where she was 75% (or very slightly below) stats wise. Applied EA, deferred then wait-listed. Didn't seem to help her even a bit.

Why would you apply ED to what sounds like a safety based on stats?

Not a safety if acceptance rate below 20%!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

My understanding is that ED is binding. Every college website I've looked at that offers ED has said as much. Where is this other "power balance" you're talking about even possible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Being able to afford to apply ED where there is a clear admission advantage in the acceptance rate. The school itself could be need blind admission but if there is a bump for being willing to commit to them in a binding decision, indirectly there is a financial advantage to being full-pay and being able to be in that ED pool. Look at the acceptance rate between ED and the RD without EA/ED to evaluate where and to what extent https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

The other is if it’s a need aware school but IMO it is a much smaller advantage. https://blog.prepscholar.com/need-aware-colleges. I think of it more that they might look to put you in the accept pile, then realize it’s high need/this is what left in the budget and not offer admissions versus necessarily having someone in a maybe pile and pulling up because they are full pay - but overall the school knows collectively how much total tuition they need and how much aid they can offer so depending on the other applicants and the overall situation full pay could make a difference but maybe not.

FYI - this has not been the case this year. For most kids we know, ED was not a benefit unless you had hooks (and for Ivy legacy isn't enough - need VIP plus legacy). It remains to be seen whether these ED students that were deferred end up being accepted in RD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being able to afford to apply ED where there is a clear admission advantage in the acceptance rate. The school itself could be need blind admission but if there is a bump for being willing to commit to them in a binding decision, indirectly there is a financial advantage to being full-pay and being able to be in that ED pool. Look at the acceptance rate between ED and the RD without EA/ED to evaluate where and to what extent https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

The other is if it’s a need aware school but IMO it is a much smaller advantage. https://blog.prepscholar.com/need-aware-colleges. I think of it more that they might look to put you in the accept pile, then realize it’s high need/this is what left in the budget and not offer admissions versus necessarily having someone in a maybe pile and pulling up because they are full pay - but overall the school knows collectively how much total tuition they need and how much aid they can offer so depending on the other applicants and the overall situation full pay could make a difference but maybe not.

FYI - this has not been the case this year. For most kids we know, ED was not a benefit unless you had hooks (and for Ivy legacy isn't enough - need VIP plus legacy). It remains to be seen whether these ED students that were deferred end up being accepted in RD.

You have no way of knowing if it helped or not. Not getting in ED doesn’t mean ED wasn’t a benefit. ED acceptance rates are higher but they are not 100 percent. ED at top schools is still competitive, just a bit less

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

I thought getting accepted ED required you to pull your other applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a huge advantage that you can put yourself in the ED pool. We need in state or merit aid so can only apply ED in state. Full pay is an advantage at every school that has ED. It won’t help you over the other ED applicants. But it will over the other kids who can’t put themselves in the ED pool for financial reasons.

I don’t fully understand this. My DC applied TO to T15 ED, as we felt that was the best shot for acceptance. She was admitted with no financial aid. She left her app open for UC Berkeley, where she is likely a strong candidate. Not sure which she will choose. My point is concern about finances or affordability shouldn’t prevent you from applying ED to top choice - you can and should also apply to a full slate and evaluate those acceptances against the financial aid from the ED school. This notion that an ED acceptance means pulling all other apps is incorrect - you can decline an ED offer based on better relative affordability of another school. And don’t start bringing up “financial calculators” etc etc - only you and your family know what’s affordable. And the more options for students the better - colleges hate this logic as it shifts the power dynamic. And the wealthy contingent hates it because the “pulling all other apps” completely favors the wealthy where cost is no issue.

My understanding is that ED is binding. Every college website I've looked at that offers ED has said as much. Where is this other "power balance" you're talking about even possible?

You can get out of ED if the financial aid award is insufficient but if you didn’t apply for aid in the first place, and many or most ED applicants don’t apply for aid because they won’t qualify, it is hard to make that claim. ED is not legally binding but breaking the ED agreement appears to be problematic. “Admissions officers talk” is something I’ve heard and apparently other offers can be rescinded, also if you have other kids it could be a problem. I don’t know how much of this is real but I also would not want to find out by doing it.

[Anonymous]

I can’t believe how naive people are. At need aware schools often about 40 percent of the class receives aid which is usually like 55k on average so nearly a full ride. At the same time about a quarter of the school is black/Hispanic with some other percentage going to FGLI types with obscure back stories. How many black or Hispanic families do you know who can or would cut an 80k/year check to Carleton College? Maybe some but not a lot! So how much aid money does that leave over for upper middle class to affluent whites and Asians? Not much! Full pay/low need is almost table stakes if you are a typical American white or Asian family applying to these schools. Sure-some get aid- but these are going to be kids in the top decile. There is a reason these schools have a reputation of being filled with rich white/Asian kids. Because they are filled with rich white/Asian kids who are for the most part receiving no aid. This doesn’t mean all rich white/Asian kids can get in - there are a lot of them out there and they are competing amongst themselves at these tiny schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being able to afford to apply ED where there is a clear admission advantage in the acceptance rate. The school itself could be need blind admission but if there is a bump for being willing to commit to them in a binding decision, indirectly there is a financial advantage to being full-pay and being able to be in that ED pool. Look at the acceptance rate between ED and the RD without EA/ED to evaluate where and to what extent https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

The other is if it’s a need aware school but IMO it is a much smaller advantage. https://blog.prepscholar.com/need-aware-colleges. I think of it more that they might look to put you in the accept pile, then realize it’s high need/this is what left in the budget and not offer admissions versus necessarily having someone in a maybe pile and pulling up because they are full pay - but overall the school knows collectively how much total tuition they need and how much aid they can offer so depending on the other applicants and the overall situation full pay could make a difference but maybe not.

FYI - this has not been the case this year. For most kids we know, ED was not a benefit unless you had hooks (and for Ivy legacy isn't enough - need VIP plus legacy). It remains to be seen whether these ED students that were deferred end up being accepted in RD.

Some colleges do NOT automatically put you into RD if you don't get in ED. I know that many do, but not all of them, often you're not in at ED and you're not in at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being able to afford to apply ED where there is a clear admission advantage in the acceptance rate. The school itself could be need blind admission but if there is a bump for being willing to commit to them in a binding decision, indirectly there is a financial advantage to being full-pay and being able to be in that ED pool. Look at the acceptance rate between ED and the RD without EA/ED to evaluate where and to what extent https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

The other is if it’s a need aware school but IMO it is a much smaller advantage. https://blog.prepscholar.com/need-aware-colleges. I think of it more that they might look to put you in the accept pile, then realize it’s high need/this is what left in the budget and not offer admissions versus necessarily having someone in a maybe pile and pulling up because they are full pay - but overall the school knows collectively how much total tuition they need and how much aid they can offer so depending on the other applicants and the overall situation full pay could make a difference but maybe not.

FYI - this has not been the case this year. For most kids we know, ED was not a benefit unless you had hooks (and for Ivy legacy isn't enough - need VIP plus legacy). It remains to be seen whether these ED students that were deferred end up being accepted in RD.

You have no way of knowing if it helped or not. Not getting in ED doesn’t mean ED wasn’t a benefit. ED acceptance rates are higher but they are not 100 percent. ED at top schools is still competitive, just a bit less

PP here. It depends on the school whether it’s a slight edge or an actual bump. For example, applying ED Brown which has 4% RD (excluding ED) and 16% RD acceptance rate it won’t seem obvious. A large number of kids applying ED are full pay with equally high stats and if you take out the kids that are hooked, maybe that acceptance rate looks more like 6% than 2%(say that’s the unhooked RD rate). However look at Tulane (31% ED, 8% excluding EA/ED) or Northeastern (51% ED, 17% excluding EA/ED) that is a clear advantage. Within the T15 I’ve heard of UChicago having an edge if applying ED.

[Anonymous]

A recent Your College Bound Kid podcast addressed this and clearly made the case that there are no need blind schools. They all know the financial make up of the class and strive to hit a balance. As a recent financial advisor put it, they didn't get $million/billion endowments by giving away their money. Full pay is absolutely a hook at every point in admissions, but I think it really helps when schools go to their waitlists.