Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

Thanks for informing me how swimming cuts work...my kid has multiple NCSA cuts so I think I might know something about how swim cuts work. my point is kids race to go as fast as they can and coaches train them to go as fast as they can...the age group they practice in does not dictate their training...we have multiple lanes of swimmers doing workouts at different internvals at my kids' site...they train by their speed not by their age.....this is why this thread is silly to me. If a swimmer is fast enough to hit a 11-12 cut then they are fast enough to hit it.....and agree it would be absurd to have a 13 year old racing 11 year olds at a Championship level meet

NCSA is a great example - the age group meet has single age cuts so the February birthday kid is at the worst disadvantage every single year, rather than just every other year. It is not hard at all for kids with birthdays right after NCSAs to make those cuts, but pretty hard for the kids who have just turned their age. The meet is the same weekend every year, so benefits the same kids year after year… do you see the problem?

Once they hit 15 then it is the same cut for all ages, so relax. I have a February birthday swimmer (who is now 15) so I get it, but there are also summer NCSAs and other championship meets. Having a "bad" birthday is not going to affect a swimmer's ability to swim in college. It all balances out eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

It can't be anymore fair than that.

I think what OP doesn't like is that it's TOO fair - no potential ambiguity by which one could gain an unfair advantage.

Lol, what?

What could be more fair than competing the age you are at the time of competition, not the age you may have been at some point in the past?

No wiggle room, no ambiguity - you compete at your age.

This!! A two year age grouping means a two year age gap between swimmers! Don’t like it? Should planned your birthing plan better. Lol

It's so fair, it just may be too fair for OP because she is used to the the less fair ways that other sports determine age eligibility.

Is this actually a serious post? Let me help you out here. The JO's are March 10. Johnnie turns 11 on March 9, so he has to compete as an 11 year old. Adam turns 13 on March 11, so he competes as a 12 year old in the same races as Johnnie even though he is two years older. Mikey turns 11 on March 11, so he gets to compete as a 10-year old and doesn't have to compete against Johnnie even though he is older 2 days younger.

Lol you do realize that in this scenario you have concocted, all the kids are actually just swimming in the age group for their actual age right? Johnny has to compete as an 11 year old on March 10 because he is in fact 11 years old. Adam competes as 12 year old on March 10th because he is in fact 12 years old on that date. You know what’s coming next, Mikey competes as an 10 year old on March 10th because he is in fact 10 years old on that date. How is this less fair in an individual sport than setting an arbitrary cutoff date that leads to a 13 and a half year old swimming in the 11-12 group at a champs meet.

I am starting to come to the realization that some people think kids magically get an entire years' worth of size and strength on their actual birthday.

They don’t, but club swim is an individual sport with age group competition categories, not competition categories based on kids’ size and strength. Are you suggesting that kids’ size and strength need to be measured and only kids of similar size and strength should compete against each other regardless of age?

The point of the age groups is to approximate that.

You realize that any suggested adjustment will disadvantage someone, it’s just that it won’t disadvantage your kid. Allowing a kid who is say 13 years 5 months to compete in an 11-12 category disadvantages the actual 12 year olds, not to mention the actual 11 year olds swimming in that group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

It is fair!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

It can't be anymore fair than that.

I think what OP doesn't like is that it's TOO fair - no potential ambiguity by which one could gain an unfair advantage.

Lol, what?

What could be more fair than competing the age you are at the time of competition, not the age you may have been at some point in the past?

No wiggle room, no ambiguity - you compete at your age.

It's so fair, it just may be too fair for OP because she is used to the the less fair ways that other sports determine age eligibility.

Is this actually a serious post? Let me help you out here. The JO's are March 10. Johnnie turns 11 on March 9, so he has to compete as an 11 year old. Adam turns 13 on March 11, so he competes as a 12 year old in the same races as Johnnie even though he is two years older. Mikey turns 11 on March 11, so he gets to compete as a 10-year old and doesn't have to compete against Johnnie even though he is older 2 days younger.

Sounds reasonable to me!

Sure, if your kid is Adam who gets to trounce poor Johnnie who is two years younger. Then it's awesome. Not so awesome for Johnnie.

My kid has the youngest birthday possible for summer swim. Every other year until turning 16, was the youngest swimmer for their age group. Still made coaches LC, All stars and broke team and pool records.

Some swimmers have a crappy birthday for SC champs, some have one for summer swim and LC champs and zones, others have a terrible birthday for mid season champs in December. The fairest way to deal with it is swim the age you are. How else do you determine where to put the cut off date? Someone will always be potentially swimming against someone 2 years older.

I assume you have a daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that the aging up on your actual birthday is the fairest. We have a january birthday- my kid rocked the december championship meets and is not back at the bottom of the age range and will not be swimming in JO's. Oh well- it happens, no big deal. I also fully disagree with the idea that the season is 'structured' around the JO competition- its not- its another meet. A fun, competitive meet, but its a meet. I find it frustrating for summer swim that basically all of our pool records are held by kids who are in fact 11 when they break the 9-10 record, etc. They all have June birthdays. Certainly wouldn't want to see USA swimming adopt that silly model- and I am confident that they won't.

Agreed. If anything, summer swim should follow USA Swimming rules.

YES!

[Anonymous]

Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

Thanks for informing me how swimming cuts work...my kid has multiple NCSA cuts so I think I might know something about how swim cuts work. my point is kids race to go as fast as they can and coaches train them to go as fast as they can...the age group they practice in does not dictate their training...we have multiple lanes of swimmers doing workouts at different internvals at my kids' site...they train by their speed not by their age.....this is why this thread is silly to me. If a swimmer is fast enough to hit a 11-12 cut then they are fast enough to hit it.....and agree it would be absurd to have a 13 year old racing 11 year olds at a Championship level meet

NCSA is a great example - the age group meet has single age cuts so the February birthday kid is at the worst disadvantage every single year, rather than just every other year. It is not hard at all for kids with birthdays right after NCSAs to make those cuts, but pretty hard for the kids who have just turned their age. The meet is the same weekend every year, so benefits the same kids year after year… do you see the problem?

Setting a different cutoff doesn't make it more fair. It just changes who is disadvantaged. No other sport rotates cutoff so different kids are disadvantaged different years. And most other sports have a single cutoff so the same kids are disadvantaged year round, not just in one part of the seasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

Summer swim is for funsies... it doesn't really matter and they go by actual age at the time of the meet, they have a single cut-off that gives an unfair advantage to kids that have Jun-Sep birthdays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

Summer swim is for funsies... it doesn't really matter and they go by actual age at the time of the meet, they have a single cut-off that gives an unfair advantage to kids that have Jun-Sep birthdays.

^^ they DON'T go by actual age at the time of the meet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

Jesus NVSL parents, summer swim means jack in the grand scheme of a kid’s swim career. It’s rec league summer swim, unclench and take a deep breath. The year round club swim rules, yeah those matter more, and the current structure is as fair as it’s going to get.

[Anonymous]

Don’t most of the fast kids hit the following age group standards? My kid was always focused on the next age group up). My 11/12 year old has the 14 year old JO cuts and is a decently fast but nothing amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

Jesus NVSL parents, summer swim means jack in the grand scheme of a kid’s swim career. It’s rec league summer swim, unclench and take a deep breath. The year round club swim rules, yeah those matter more, and the current structure is as fair as it’s going to get.

Someone tried to explain summer swim to me and it sounds so contrived. Truly, no one outside the dc area cares at all about age cutoffs in summer swim and whether the records are held by kids who are actually older than the age groups. It’s like bragging about winning your country club putt putt competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

Jesus NVSL parents, summer swim means jack in the grand scheme of a kid’s swim career. It’s rec league summer swim, unclench and take a deep breath. The year round club swim rules, yeah those matter more, and the current structure is as fair as it’s going to get.

Someone tried to explain summer swim to me and it sounds so contrived. Truly, no one outside the dc area cares at all about age cutoffs in summer swim and whether the records are held by kids who are actually older than the age groups. It’s like bragging about winning your country club putt putt competition.

The thing about the DC area is that the culture is parents competing about kid achievements. That's why summer swim birthdays matter and there are 3 million posts about TJ. We judge each other by what kids accomplish. Or maybe we are just judging ourselves. It's a weird slightly toxic mindset that pervades the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guys, we’re talking about kids swim. While it’s fun to make cut times for certain meets, and a bummer when the cutoffs don’t work in your favor, it’s… kids swim. As others have said, if they’re a true phenomenon, age cut offs don’t really matter anyway. There are plenty of 13 year olds making top 10 times in the 13/14 age group. If your kid was that good, they would too. Relax. By the time they’re in high school and any of this matters (even questionable that it does in high school) the cutoffs matter much less. In the meantime, the benefits your kid gets from swimming include learning to work hard, challenge themselves, and learn to deal with occasionally disappointment - whether that’s due to a bad race or I’ll timed birthday. Those are things you should be embracing rather than whining that the system is unfair for poor Johnny. - mom of two swimmers, one with a good birthday and one without

Eh, not necessarily. At divisionals (NVSL) this past summer, there was ONE 13 year old boy in the top 27 kids for the 50 free, and I know him; he was already 14 by this summer. (Even he didn't make the top 18, BUT the top seeded kid had a summer birthday and was well over 6'. He was 15, swimming against 14 year olds.) Please don't say that summer birthdays don't really matter. They absolutely do. What the age cut offs do for summer is allow summer birthday kids to hold the records, and to beat out other kids who are much younger.) Another example is the boy who broke the 11/12 year old 50 fly record this summer. He was 13, swimming down and that record will be very hard to break. He now will have through the summer of his 15th birthday to swim as a 13/14 year old.

How do you know how old these kids are?