Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Get over it. Swimming is a year around sport. Some meets they will have an advantage, some they won't. That's the sport and that's life. You're not doing your kid any favors by always trying to protect them from disappointment.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

It can't be anymore fair than that.

I think what OP doesn't like is that it's TOO fair - no potential ambiguity by which one could gain an unfair advantage.

Lol, what?

What could be more fair than competing the age you are at the time of competition, not the age you may have been at some point in the past?

No wiggle room, no ambiguity - you compete at your age.

It's so fair, it just may be too fair for OP because she is used to the the less fair ways that other sports determine age eligibility.

Is this actually a serious post? Let me help you out here. The JO's are March 10. Johnnie turns 11 on March 9, so he has to compete as an 11 year old. Adam turns 13 on March 11, so he competes as a 12 year old in the same races as Johnnie even though he is two years older. Mikey turns 11 on March 11, so he gets to compete as a 10-year old and doesn't have to compete against Johnnie even though he is older 2 days younger.

The reason USA Swimming has the rule that if you start the meet at one age you finish the meet at that age is because it would be a huge PITA for the host team to move kids from one age bracket to the next during the meet. Also you're talking about a couple days being unfair, while simultaneously arguing that USA Swimming should use some arbitrary cut off date during the year.

Are you the OP? It seems like your kid is just not that good if you are so wound up about this. I have a February birthday kid, and she works to make cuts for the next age group up so that she can swim the March meets, but she also dominates the December meets. Swimming is a year round sport.

No, not OP. I'm arguing against the idea the system somehow more fair than a single cut-off date. It isn't. Any system is going to create winners and losers and you're going to get kids that have differences of nearly two years in age swimming against one another as long as the brackets span two years. But the idea that the current system is somehow more fair is pretty ridiculous. You don't suddenly become bigger and stronger on your birthday.

The main reason other sports use a single cut-off is that it would be very disruptive if kids were constantly aging out of a team so the members of the team would constantly be changing during the season as kids aged up. That rationale isn't quite as strong with swim because it's not a team sport, but it still does apply because teams train together by age group. My DD started the season in the 9-10 group and then started training with the 11-12 group in December after she turned 11 in Nov. That meant a whole new schedule and set of kids to swim with.

Our big club has all these kids training together. The fastest of the 11-12s move up to an advanced middle school group. The other difference at our club is that no one would move in December. They pretty much only do group transitions after spring championships and then when kids come back in the fall. I'm sure that's not a perfect system either, but just noting there are a variety of ways to structure practice groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get over it. Swimming is a year around sport. Some meets they will have an advantage, some they won't. That's the sport and that's life. You're not doing your kid any favors by always trying to protect them from disappointment.

+1

Should we also start testing kids for hormone levels so we can separate out when kid do and do not hit puberty because I can tell you this has a much bigger impact than birthday when boys turn 11+. There is a younger 13 yr old who swims and crushed everyone. I know but, his birthday put him at a disadvantage. Well guess what puberty put him at an advantage. He is a foot taller than most kid and has significantly more muscle. So it life.

Once kids enter 15-18 it evens out.

[Anonymous]

This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

Our club/group most definitely trains and plans meets to make championship meet cuts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

I think it’s fair in theory, but then the swim season shouldn’t be structured around very few championships where the same swimmers benefit from a fortunate birthday year after year.

Nothing is fair. Summer birthdays benefit greatly in summer league. Not fair to others. There are three championship times of year that a kid can excel. We have a kid that is 10 and ages up at the end of February and was able to make the 11-12 cuts for championships. That was the goal and she accomplished it.

New poster: that’s great but it doesn’t change the fact that the worst birthdays for most of swim is feb to mid March. This is especially true once you’re swimming against kids undergoing early puberty or who have a late birthday.

No one is saying that February to early March are good swim birthdays, but using actual birthdays is the most objectively fair way to decide when a kid ages up. An 11 year old or 13 year old cleaning up by swimming down at age group champs is not fair either.

It will never change…but a fairer way to do it is to end it based in mid august when swim ends for everyone. So the age you are as of 10/1 each year is how you will swim the year. Most on the fence kids then have through the March championship meets to make cuts or motivational times.

No, that is not a fairer way, the fairest way is the way they are doing it.

-1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

It can't be anymore fair than that.

I think what OP doesn't like is that it's TOO fair - no potential ambiguity by which one could gain an unfair advantage.

Lol, what?

What could be more fair than competing the age you are at the time of competition, not the age you may have been at some point in the past?

No wiggle room, no ambiguity - you compete at your age.

It's so fair, it just may be too fair for OP because she is used to the the less fair ways that other sports determine age eligibility.

Is this actually a serious post? Let me help you out here. The JO's are March 10. Johnnie turns 11 on March 9, so he has to compete as an 11 year old. Adam turns 13 on March 11, so he competes as a 12 year old in the same races as Johnnie even though he is two years older. Mikey turns 11 on March 11, so he gets to compete as a 10-year old and doesn't have to compete against Johnnie even though he is older 2 days younger.

Lol you do realize that in this scenario you have concocted, all the kids are actually just swimming in the age group for their actual age right? Johnny has to compete as an 11 year old on March 10 because he is in fact 11 years old. Adam competes as 12 year old on March 10th because he is in fact 12 years old on that date. You know what’s coming next, Mikey competes as an 10 year old on March 10th because he is in fact 10 years old on that date. How is this less fair in an individual sport than setting an arbitrary cutoff date that leads to a 13 and a half year old swimming in the 11-12 group at a champs meet.

I am starting to come to the realization that some people think kids magically get an entire years' worth of size and strength on their actual birthday.

They don’t, but club swim is an individual sport with age group competition categories, not competition categories based on kids’ size and strength. Are you suggesting that kids’ size and strength need to be measured and only kids of similar size and strength should compete against each other regardless of age?

The point of the age groups is to approximate that.

You realize that any suggested adjustment will disadvantage someone, it’s just that it won’t disadvantage your kid. Allowing a kid who is say 13 years 5 months to compete in an 11-12 category disadvantages the actual 12 year olds, not to mention the actual 11 year olds swimming in that group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

Thanks for informing me how swimming cuts work...my kid has multiple NCSA cuts so I think I might know something about how swim cuts work. my point is kids race to go as fast as they can and coaches train them to go as fast as they can...the age group they practice in does not dictate their training...we have multiple lanes of swimmers doing workouts at different internvals at my kids' site...they train by their speed not by their age.....this is why this thread is silly to me. If a swimmer is fast enough to hit a 11-12 cut then they are fast enough to hit it.....and agree it would be absurd to have a 13 year old racing 11 year olds at a Championship level meet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

Thanks for informing me how swimming cuts work...my kid has multiple NCSA cuts so I think I might know something about how swim cuts work. my point is kids race to go as fast as they can and coaches train them to go as fast as they can...the age group they practice in does not dictate their training...we have multiple lanes of swimmers doing workouts at different internvals at my kids' site...they train by their speed not by their age.....this is why this thread is silly to me. If a swimmer is fast enough to hit a 11-12 cut then they are fast enough to hit it.....and agree it would be absurd to have a 13 year old racing 11 year olds at a Championship level meet

NCSA is a great example - the age group meet has single age cuts so the February birthday kid is at the worst disadvantage every single year, rather than just every other year. It is not hard at all for kids with birthdays right after NCSAs to make those cuts, but pretty hard for the kids who have just turned their age. The meet is the same weekend every year, so benefits the same kids year after year… do you see the problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

Thanks for informing me how swimming cuts work...my kid has multiple NCSA cuts so I think I might know something about how swim cuts work. my point is kids race to go as fast as they can and coaches train them to go as fast as they can...the age group they practice in does not dictate their training...we have multiple lanes of swimmers doing workouts at different internvals at my kids' site...they train by their speed not by their age.....this is why this thread is silly to me. If a swimmer is fast enough to hit a 11-12 cut then they are fast enough to hit it.....and agree it would be absurd to have a 13 year old racing 11 year olds at a Championship level meet

NCSA is a great example - the age group meet has single age cuts so the February birthday kid is at the worst disadvantage every single year, rather than just every other year. It is not hard at all for kids with birthdays right after NCSAs to make those cuts, but pretty hard for the kids who have just turned their age. The meet is the same weekend every year, so benefits the same kids year after year… do you see the problem?

But, NCSA also has a summer champs, there are zones, national meets, high school meets, all at different times of the year. If they are really that good, it won't matter. If they aren't and it really bothers you that much, switch them to a birthyear sport where they will have an advantage over the younger kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that the aging up on your actual birthday is the fairest. We have a january birthday- my kid rocked the december championship meets and is not back at the bottom of the age range and will not be swimming in JO's. Oh well- it happens, no big deal. I also fully disagree with the idea that the season is 'structured' around the JO competition- it’s not- its another meet. A fun, competitive meet, but it’s a meet. I find it frustrating for summer swim that basically all of our pool records are held by kids who are in fact 11 when they break the 9-10 record, etc. They all have June birthdays. Certainly wouldn't want to see USA swimming adopt that silly model- and I am confident that they won't.

Totally agree with this. I think people get tunnel vision about JO’s. I have a kid who won several events at JO’s at age 10 (not dc area) and he was way more excited about the times he got right after JO’s at a meet with faster Q times, where he placed out of the top 10. If you ask him about his best meet, he names that one, not JO’s. JO’s are a great way for kids to get used to the prelim/final format and swim against kids they have been racing all season, but to think that it should dictate age cutoffs is shortsighted. Swimming is a long game and JO’s is just one of many stepping stones.

Agree and once they turn 15 it doesn’t matter at all. My college swimmer only once made JOs (at 14) because of a bad swimming (late November) birthday. But he made sectional, NCSA and futures cut as a 16/17 year old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that the aging up on your actual birthday is the fairest. We have a january birthday- my kid rocked the december championship meets and is not back at the bottom of the age range and will not be swimming in JO's. Oh well- it happens, no big deal. I also fully disagree with the idea that the season is 'structured' around the JO competition- it’s not- its another meet. A fun, competitive meet, but it’s a meet. I find it frustrating for summer swim that basically all of our pool records are held by kids who are in fact 11 when they break the 9-10 record, etc. They all have June birthdays. Certainly wouldn't want to see USA swimming adopt that silly model- and I am confident that they won't.

Totally agree with this. I think people get tunnel vision about JO’s. I have a kid who won several events at JO’s at age 10 (not dc area) and he was way more excited about the times he got right after JO’s at a meet with faster Q times, where he placed out of the top 10. If you ask him about his best meet, he names that one, not JO’s. JO’s are a great way for kids to get used to the prelim/final format and swim against kids they have been racing all season, but to think that it should dictate age cutoffs is shortsighted. Swimming is a long game and JO’s is just one of many stepping stones.

Agree and once they turn 15 it doesn’t matter at all. My college swimmer only once made JOs (at 14) because of a bad swimming (late November) birthday. But he made sectional, NCSA and futures cut as a 16/17 year old.

Agreed 100%. Although I do think it’s a little funny when parents get super hyped and crazy thinking they have the next Michael Phelps because their April birthday 10 year old made JOs or NCSAs. Well yeah, any halfway decent swimmer would make those cuts at the top of their age group. I’ve seen it over and over and it’s just so silly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think aging up on your birthday makes swimming the fairest sport out there.

It can't be anymore fair than that.

I think what OP doesn't like is that it's TOO fair - no potential ambiguity by which one could gain an unfair advantage.

Lol, what?

What could be more fair than competing the age you are at the time of competition, not the age you may have been at some point in the past?

No wiggle room, no ambiguity - you compete at your age.

It's so fair, it just may be too fair for OP because she is used to the the less fair ways that other sports determine age eligibility.

Is this actually a serious post? Let me help you out here. The JO's are March 10. Johnnie turns 11 on March 9, so he has to compete as an 11 year old. Adam turns 13 on March 11, so he competes as a 12 year old in the same races as Johnnie even though he is two years older. Mikey turns 11 on March 11, so he gets to compete as a 10-year old and doesn't have to compete against Johnnie even though he is older 2 days younger.

Sounds reasonable to me!

Sure, if your kid is Adam who gets to trounce poor Johnnie who is two years younger. Then it's awesome. Not so awesome for Johnnie.

My kid has the youngest birthday possible for summer swim. Every other year until turning 16, was the youngest swimmer for their age group. Still made coaches LC, All stars and broke team and pool records.

Some swimmers have a crappy birthday for SC champs, some have one for summer swim and LC champs and zones, others have a terrible birthday for mid season champs in December. The fairest way to deal with it is swim the age you are. How else do you determine where to put the cut off date? Someone will always be potentially swimming against someone 2 years older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This entire thread is weird to me….kids don’t train and race to hit a specific cut for a specific age group. They swim and train to swim as fast as they possibly can in events regardless of age…it’s not like a swim coach is going to say “hey Suzie only swim a 37.5 in your 50 breaststroke today because that is the JO cut”….

And agree that the ISA swimming age cuts is the fairest deal out there in youth sports

huh.. do you know anything about swimming?

Sure kids train to swim as fast as they can but there are time cuts you need to hit in order to be elidable to swim at the top meets. Sure Suzie is going to swim as fast as she can but if Suzie is 12 she can swim 37.5 and make the meet but when she turns 13 the next day she may need to swim 34.

It is what it is though. Thing will never be 100% fair, that is life.

If Susie is 13 by the first day of the meet, of course she needs 13 year old cuts.