Why doesn’t USA Swimming use cut-off dates like every other youth sport?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can’t look at girls aging up from 11-12 to 13-14 as your reference point, because time standards and cuts simply don’t get a whole lot faster for girls after 11-12. It has to do with physiological developmental differences between the sexes. Look at the boys and it’s a whole different story. If a 12 year old boy is making multiple 13-14 cuts, he is either an early developer or extremely elite.

So you’re saying the perceived disadvantages discussed herein are (1) very age/sex specific and (2) not permanent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can’t look at girls aging up from 11-12 to 13-14 as your reference point, because time standards and cuts simply don’t get a whole lot faster for girls after 11-12. It has to do with physiological developmental differences between the sexes. Look at the boys and it’s a whole different story. If a 12 year old boy is making multiple 13-14 cuts, he is either an early developer or extremely elite.

So you’re saying the perceived disadvantages discussed herein are (1) very age/sex specific and (2) not permanent.

New poster: how could they be permanent? At 16 years old, it’s fair for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You also have to keep in mind that a lot less girls than boys have achieved the 11-12 JO cut in the 100 free too. As of the most recent SR update, 51 11-12 girls have the 100 free JO cut vs. 101 11-12 boys. There are also many 11 year olds in both groups thus highlighting the overarching point that even those who are a year or more below than maximum age have ample opportunity to qualify for JOs (or other similar meets throughout the year).

New poster: you’re missing the point. NO ONE is claiming an issue with all 11 year olds making an 11-12 year old cut. It’s an issue with kids who are a few days or weeks into 11 years olds swimming against girls who are essentially done with puberty at nearly 13. It’s those few kids.

[Anonymous]

No sport is fair including swimming. When my short girl says she would have won if only she were taller, I remind her that every swimmer comes into a race with advantages and disadvantages. Maybe one swimmer has an advantageous birthday or really flexible shoulders or private coaching or any number of things. She comes into a race with her own advantages and she needs to use that. In addition she needs to continue to work on her technique in practice because her work ethic and attention to detail should be her advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You also have to keep in mind that a lot less girls than boys have achieved the 11-12 JO cut in the 100 free too. As of the most recent SR update, 51 11-12 girls have the 100 free JO cut vs. 101 11-12 boys. There are also many 11 year olds in both groups thus highlighting the overarching point that even those who are a year or more below than maximum age have ample opportunity to qualify for JOs (or other similar meets throughout the year).

New poster: you’re missing the point. NO ONE is claiming an issue with all 11 year olds making an 11-12 year old cut. It’s an issue with kids who are a few days or weeks into 11 years olds swimming against girls who are essentially done with puberty at nearly 13. It’s those few kids.

Next year will be their time to shine. Both of them will be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You also have to keep in mind that a lot less girls than boys have achieved the 11-12 JO cut in the 100 free too. As of the most recent SR update, 51 11-12 girls have the 100 free JO cut vs. 101 11-12 boys. There are also many 11 year olds in both groups thus highlighting the overarching point that even those who are a year or more below than maximum age have ample opportunity to qualify for JOs (or other similar meets throughout the year).

New poster: you’re missing the point. NO ONE is claiming an issue with all 11 year olds making an 11-12 year old cut. It’s an issue with kids who are a few days or weeks into 11 years olds swimming against girls who are essentially done with puberty at nearly 13. It’s those few kids.

Next year will be their time to shine. Both of them will be fine.

No you don’t get it. Next year they will be middle of the pack age-wise, at just turned 12. Yes they will probably make all the cuts, but they are not much different from the older 11 year olds and will still get crushed by those who are almost 13. It’s an issue for these kids every year, the point is that they never get a chance to shine at their champs meet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

Being 10 years 11 months is not that different from being 11 years and 2 months though as many have pointed out, and there are definitely a number of kids at the lowest end of the age group making champs meets. It’s not just the truly elite than can hit the next age group’s cuts before they age up. Yes, all those kids are excellent, but we are with one of the big clubs and it is not unusual for this to happen.

Yes, you are making the same point - those kids might be 11 years + a month at champs, meaning they had to qualify for that meet as a 10 year old. Then they are competing in the meet against kids who will turn 13 days or weeks after the meet.

I would argue that kids who are doing that ARE truly elite. The champs cuts for 11-12 where I am are equivalent to 10 &under AAAA times. Yes, there are kids who can do it, but I think it’s safe to say they are elite swimmers.

+1. It’s very very rare for a kid to make JO qualifying times for the next age group. There are only 7 10 year olds boys in all of PVS who have 11-12 times for 100 free.

I’m not weighing in on the merits of the original argument, but this simply isn’t true that it’s “very very rare”. There are a lot of PVS swimmers that hit 13/14 times at 12. A lot. Don’t get me wrong, making PVS champs is a great accomplishment for an age group swimmer, but it’s not an elite meet. Plenty of the stronger swimmers will make cuts for the next age group before they age group. And I see your 100 free point, but did you look at how many current 11 year olds made the cut before they turned 11? I bet it’s more than you’d think.

Again, I don’t have a strong opinion on age up approach (someone is always disadvantaged by the system depending on their birthday in every system), but it’s also very standard for age group swimmers to practice with a range of ages based on ability, not strictly age. I’m not suggesting an 8 year old practices with a 14 year old, but it’s normal to have a range of ages so that a competitive swimmer that ages up in March was likely practicing with a competitive peer group swimming that new age group at champs.

There are three 12 year old boys in all of PVS with 13-14 cuts in 100 free.

Again, this is a flawed approach. How many 13 year old boys made the 100 free cut before they turned 13? You can’t just look at current 12 year olds or your entire argument falls apart.

PS - girls swim too

At our club, of the 13 year old kids swimming 13/14 champs, most of them got their cuts before they turned 13. We are one smaller club and it’s more than 3 per event at one club, much less the entire LSC.

It sucks for kids that age up in March, not minimizing that. But it’s just not that rare to qualify before you do.

I don’t know of a database with this information. The numbers should be pretty similar though.

Just looked at girls. There are zero PVS 10 year old girls with 11-12 cuts in 100 free.

My data says otherwise but again, regardless, you can’t just look at current 10 year olds. To prove this “very very rare” point, you’d need to look at when all kids competing at age 11 hit the 11/12 cuts and how many hit them while still 10. Also, I understand that 100 free is your reference point, but I’d encourage you to look at other strokes and distances. 100 free cuts are typically tough to avoid a massive number of heats.

You make no sense. Current 10 year olds are exactly what you need to look at if the question is how many can get cuts as 10 year olds in the regular season before they age up just before champs. That is what we’re talking about here, kids who spend the whole season in the lower age group but then age up before champs and therefore have to qualify for the new age group before they actually reach that age. And even though you want to deny it for some reason, it is very rare, especially for boys once you get past 11-12. A whole lineup of AAAA times are not super common.

Actually, I made it very clear that I wasn’t arguing the point of brand new 11 year olds swimming against older kids during champs. I was specifically arguing the PP’s point that it’s “very very rare” to make a cut before you enter an age group. And to argue that point, you need to look at all swimmers and when they made cuts, not just current 10 year olds. The latter is an inaccurate and misleading sample size for the “very very rare” point. So yes, I make sense. I encourage diplomacy and not rudeness. People on this thread are so quick to attack others. Being dismissive and arrogant on an anonymous platform doesn’t make your kid swim faster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can’t look at girls aging up from 11-12 to 13-14 as your reference point, because time standards and cuts simply don’t get a whole lot faster for girls after 11-12. It has to do with physiological developmental differences between the sexes. Look at the boys and it’s a whole different story. If a 12 year old boy is making multiple 13-14 cuts, he is either an early developer or extremely elite.

I agree that the deltas are bigger for boys with the transition from 11/12 to 13/14, but I’m not sure I’d say the times for girls “don’t get a whole lot faster” between those age groups. The cuts still go down quite a bit and are some fast times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You also have to keep in mind that a lot less girls than boys have achieved the 11-12 JO cut in the 100 free too. As of the most recent SR update, 51 11-12 girls have the 100 free JO cut vs. 101 11-12 boys. There are also many 11 year olds in both groups thus highlighting the overarching point that even those who are a year or more below than maximum age have ample opportunity to qualify for JOs (or other similar meets throughout the year).

New poster: you’re missing the point. NO ONE is claiming an issue with all 11 year olds making an 11-12 year old cut. It’s an issue with kids who are a few days or weeks into 11 years olds swimming against girls who are essentially done with puberty at nearly 13. It’s those few kids.

Next year will be their time to shine. Both of them will be fine.

No you don’t get it. Next year they will be middle of the pack age-wise, at just turned 12. Yes they will probably make all the cuts, but they are not much different from the older 11 year olds and will still get crushed by those who are almost 13. It’s an issue for these kids every year, the point is that they never get a chance to shine at their champs meet.

Actually I do get it. If you have 9 and 11 year olds making finals at JOs, there’s no reason a just turned 10 or 12 year old can’t do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

Being 10 years 11 months is not that different from being 11 years and 2 months though as many have pointed out, and there are definitely a number of kids at the lowest end of the age group making champs meets. It’s not just the truly elite than can hit the next age group’s cuts before they age up. Yes, all those kids are excellent, but we are with one of the big clubs and it is not unusual for this to happen.

Yes, you are making the same point - those kids might be 11 years + a month at champs, meaning they had to qualify for that meet as a 10 year old. Then they are competing in the meet against kids who will turn 13 days or weeks after the meet.

I would argue that kids who are doing that ARE truly elite. The champs cuts for 11-12 where I am are equivalent to 10 &under AAAA times. Yes, there are kids who can do it, but I think it’s safe to say they are elite swimmers.

+1. It’s very very rare for a kid to make JO qualifying times for the next age group. There are only 7 10 year olds boys in all of PVS who have 11-12 times for 100 free.

I’m not weighing in on the merits of the original argument, but this simply isn’t true that it’s “very very rare”. There are a lot of PVS swimmers that hit 13/14 times at 12. A lot. Don’t get me wrong, making PVS champs is a great accomplishment for an age group swimmer, but it’s not an elite meet. Plenty of the stronger swimmers will make cuts for the next age group before they age group. And I see your 100 free point, but did you look at how many current 11 year olds made the cut before they turned 11? I bet it’s more than you’d think.

Again, I don’t have a strong opinion on age up approach (someone is always disadvantaged by the system depending on their birthday in every system), but it’s also very standard for age group swimmers to practice with a range of ages based on ability, not strictly age. I’m not suggesting an 8 year old practices with a 14 year old, but it’s normal to have a range of ages so that a competitive swimmer that ages up in March was likely practicing with a competitive peer group swimming that new age group at champs.

There are three 12 year old boys in all of PVS with 13-14 cuts in 100 free.

Again, this is a flawed approach. How many 13 year old boys made the 100 free cut before they turned 13? You can’t just look at current 12 year olds or your entire argument falls apart.

PS - girls swim too

At our club, of the 13 year old kids swimming 13/14 champs, most of them got their cuts before they turned 13. We are one smaller club and it’s more than 3 per event at one club, much less the entire LSC.

It sucks for kids that age up in March, not minimizing that. But it’s just not that rare to qualify before you do.

I don’t know of a database with this information. The numbers should be pretty similar though.

Just looked at girls. There are zero PVS 10 year old girls with 11-12 cuts in 100 free.

My data says otherwise but again, regardless, you can’t just look at current 10 year olds. To prove this “very very rare” point, you’d need to look at when all kids competing at age 11 hit the 11/12 cuts and how many hit them while still 10. Also, I understand that 100 free is your reference point, but I’d encourage you to look at other strokes and distances. 100 free cuts are typically tough to avoid a massive number of heats.

You make no sense. Current 10 year olds are exactly what you need to look at if the question is how many can get cuts as 10 year olds in the regular season before they age up just before champs. That is what we’re talking about here, kids who spend the whole season in the lower age group but then age up before champs and therefore have to qualify for the new age group before they actually reach that age. And even though you want to deny it for some reason, it is very rare, especially for boys once you get past 11-12. A whole lineup of AAAA times are not super common.

Actually, I made it very clear that I wasn’t arguing the point of brand new 11 year olds swimming against older kids during champs. I was specifically arguing the PP’s point that it’s “very very rare” to make a cut before you enter an age group. And to argue that point, you need to look at all swimmers and when they made cuts, not just current 10 year olds. The latter is an inaccurate and misleading sample size for the “very very rare” point. So yes, I make sense. I encourage diplomacy and not rudeness. People on this thread are so quick to attack others. Being dismissive and arrogant on an anonymous platform doesn’t make your kid swim faster.

I mean, how do you propose to do that though? Looking at current 10 year olds gives you a rough idea of how common it is to make 11-12 cuts as a 10 year old. I’m not sure how you don’t understand that?

[Anonymous]

I was a D1 swimmer and this conversation is absurd. It will not matter AT ALL by the time it actually counts. All sports have age-related disadvantages and advantages. My daughter has a Jan 2nd bday and plays travel soccer. You could argue she has an advantage every year over kids who are born in December, since they use the calendar year to determine age cut-offs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was a D1 swimmer and this conversation is absurd. It will not matter AT ALL by the time it actually counts. All sports have age-related disadvantages and advantages. My daughter has a Jan 2nd bday and plays travel soccer. You could argue she has an advantage every year over kids who are born in December, since they use the calendar year to determine age cut-offs.

THIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If your kid isn't making any JOs cut times at the bottom of the age bracket, they're not that good.

And if all they care about is making JOs cut times, they're not long for the sport.

There are champs meets all year long. JOs is only one meet. Simmer down.

Harsh but true. The parents that care about this the most are the ones that have swimmers that are marginal champs level swimmers only when they are at the top of the age grow. This is a non-issue for those kids that are hitting cuts when they are at the low end of the age group.

There is a difference between hitting those cuts at the low end of the age group (like an 11 year old) and having to hit them while you are still in the previous age group (a 10 year old having to make 11-12 cuts). This is the situation for kids who age up days before the meet and only the truly elite age groupers can do it in multiple events.

Being 10 years 11 months is not that different from being 11 years and 2 months though as many have pointed out, and there are definitely a number of kids at the lowest end of the age group making champs meets. It’s not just the truly elite than can hit the next age group’s cuts before they age up. Yes, all those kids are excellent, but we are with one of the big clubs and it is not unusual for this to happen.

Yes, you are making the same point - those kids might be 11 years + a month at champs, meaning they had to qualify for that meet as a 10 year old. Then they are competing in the meet against kids who will turn 13 days or weeks after the meet.

I would argue that kids who are doing that ARE truly elite. The champs cuts for 11-12 where I am are equivalent to 10 &under AAAA times. Yes, there are kids who can do it, but I think it’s safe to say they are elite swimmers.

+1. It’s very very rare for a kid to make JO qualifying times for the next age group. There are only 7 10 year olds boys in all of PVS who have 11-12 times for 100 free.

I’m not weighing in on the merits of the original argument, but this simply isn’t true that it’s “very very rare”. There are a lot of PVS swimmers that hit 13/14 times at 12. A lot. Don’t get me wrong, making PVS champs is a great accomplishment for an age group swimmer, but it’s not an elite meet. Plenty of the stronger swimmers will make cuts for the next age group before they age group. And I see your 100 free point, but did you look at how many current 11 year olds made the cut before they turned 11? I bet it’s more than you’d think.

Again, I don’t have a strong opinion on age up approach (someone is always disadvantaged by the system depending on their birthday in every system), but it’s also very standard for age group swimmers to practice with a range of ages based on ability, not strictly age. I’m not suggesting an 8 year old practices with a 14 year old, but it’s normal to have a range of ages so that a competitive swimmer that ages up in March was likely practicing with a competitive peer group swimming that new age group at champs.

There are three 12 year old boys in all of PVS with 13-14 cuts in 100 free.

Again, this is a flawed approach. How many 13 year old boys made the 100 free cut before they turned 13? You can’t just look at current 12 year olds or your entire argument falls apart.

PS - girls swim too

At our club, of the 13 year old kids swimming 13/14 champs, most of them got their cuts before they turned 13. We are one smaller club and it’s more than 3 per event at one club, much less the entire LSC.

It sucks for kids that age up in March, not minimizing that. But it’s just not that rare to qualify before you do.

I don’t know of a database with this information. The numbers should be pretty similar though.

Just looked at girls. There are zero PVS 10 year old girls with 11-12 cuts in 100 free.

My data says otherwise but again, regardless, you can’t just look at current 10 year olds. To prove this “very very rare” point, you’d need to look at when all kids competing at age 11 hit the 11/12 cuts and how many hit them while still 10. Also, I understand that 100 free is your reference point, but I’d encourage you to look at other strokes and distances. 100 free cuts are typically tough to avoid a massive number of heats.

You make no sense. Current 10 year olds are exactly what you need to look at if the question is how many can get cuts as 10 year olds in the regular season before they age up just before champs. That is what we’re talking about here, kids who spend the whole season in the lower age group but then age up before champs and therefore have to qualify for the new age group before they actually reach that age. And even though you want to deny it for some reason, it is very rare, especially for boys once you get past 11-12. A whole lineup of AAAA times are not super common.

Actually, I made it very clear that I wasn’t arguing the point of brand new 11 year olds swimming against older kids during champs. I was specifically arguing the PP’s point that it’s “very very rare” to make a cut before you enter an age group. And to argue that point, you need to look at all swimmers and when they made cuts, not just current 10 year olds. The latter is an inaccurate and misleading sample size for the “very very rare” point. So yes, I make sense. I encourage diplomacy and not rudeness. People on this thread are so quick to attack others. Being dismissive and arrogant on an anonymous platform doesn’t make your kid swim faster.

I mean, how do you propose to do that though? Looking at current 10 year olds gives you a rough idea of how common it is to make 11-12 cuts as a 10 year old. I’m not sure how you don’t understand that?

NP. Current 10 year olds include kids from 10.00 to 10.99. Seventy-five percent or more of them are irrelevant to your argument because they won't be 11 any time soon. I agree with the other poster that looking at the peak 10 year olds throughout the season gives you a much better perspective on the narrow slice of kids who age up just before the spring champs meets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You also have to keep in mind that a lot less girls than boys have achieved the 11-12 JO cut in the 100 free too. As of the most recent SR update, 51 11-12 girls have the 100 free JO cut vs. 101 11-12 boys. There are also many 11 year olds in both groups thus highlighting the overarching point that even those who are a year or more below than maximum age have ample opportunity to qualify for JOs (or other similar meets throughout the year).

New poster: you’re missing the point. NO ONE is claiming an issue with all 11 year olds making an 11-12 year old cut. It’s an issue with kids who are a few days or weeks into 11 years olds swimming against girls who are essentially done with puberty at nearly 13. It’s those few kids.

Next year will be their time to shine. Both of them will be fine.

No you don’t get it. Next year they will be middle of the pack age-wise, at just turned 12. Yes they will probably make all the cuts, but they are not much different from the older 11 year olds and will still get crushed by those who are almost 13. It’s an issue for these kids every year, the point is that they never get a chance to shine at their champs meet.

Actually I do get it. If you have 9 and 11 year olds making finals at JOs, there’s no reason a just turned 10 or 12 year old can’t do the same.

Glad your kid doesn’t have a bad swim birthday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a D1 swimmer and this conversation is absurd. It will not matter AT ALL by the time it actually counts. All sports have age-related disadvantages and advantages. My daughter has a Jan 2nd bday and plays travel soccer. You could argue she has an advantage every year over kids who are born in December, since they use the calendar year to determine age cut-offs.

THIS.

Just bc it evens out when the kids are 15 (good birthdays) compared to 16 (bad birthdays) doesn’t mean it didn’t have an impact before that.