Does FCPS have any requirements for instructors regarding posting grades in timely fashion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

[Anonymous]

In any case, you might try to suck it up and appreciate whatever feedback and attention you get, when you get it. You might feel entitled to certain “services” from your teacher but what are you going to do if you don’t get what you think you should get? If you complain to administration, you can bet that you will not be winning the affection of your kid’s teacher and you are probably hastening the teacher exodus.


I cannot imagine having this attitude.

Same. Regardless of teacher or school logistical challenges, feedback is a key element of learning. Without it, students don't learn, period. This is not an add-on service, but a key element of the education equation. Too much water under the bridge to come back in 1 month and tell someone they messed up something and now they need to redo it.

So maybe we should go back to the times when there were fewer ites to grade, more in-classroom conversations, thus opportunities to get that feedback immediately. And grades came at the end of the school year, based on work done during the class time.

To the teacher who thought this was a "service" request -- please do realize that not everyone needs grades because they want to see their snowflake A or contest their A-. or redo their B+. For many students, timely feedback on the quiz means they have time to re-learn, ask questions and prepare for the unit test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

[Anonymous]

If there is no time to grade then there should be fewer graded assignments!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If there is no time to grade then there should be fewer graded assignments!

I posted above. I’ve already thought of that as a solution and I have already limited assignments. My grading hasn’t gone down at all. I have fewer assignments, but now they are more meaningful and require more feedback. The simple warm-ups, exit tickets, etc… they are all gone. Truthfully, those were never the things that backed up anyway. Those were the easy grades to get in the book. (They also didn’t show true growth or learning, so it’s good they are gone.)

Trust me: I’ve thought of it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

Here's your issue: "The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress."
This relentless measuring/testing focus on SOLs and all the other junk tests is a colossal waste of both teacher and student time, and as a parent I frankly want teachers to just teach instead of spending lots of time with this. If you compare now to a generation ago, this is the main time sink that creeped into classrooms, especially when combined with technological tool nonsense that gives minimal added value.

So you don't need anymore data than what you already get when you grade assignments, as that tells you who is and isn't doing well. Additionally, after your first year and assuming you're reteaching the same grade or class, lesson planning should mainly be reusing what worked well last year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

Here's your issue: "The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress."
This relentless measuring/testing focus on SOLs and all the other junk tests is a colossal waste of both teacher and student time, and as a parent I frankly want teachers to just teach instead of spending lots of time with this. If you compare now to a generation ago, this is the main time sink that creeped into classrooms, especially when combined with technological tool nonsense that gives minimal added value.

So you don't need anymore data than what you already get when you grade assignments, as that tells you who is and isn't doing well. Additionally, after your first year and assuming you're reteaching the same grade or class, lesson planning should mainly be reusing what worked well last year.

I’m assuming you are not a teacher? This post reads as if it was written by somebody who doesn’t actually understand how teaching works. I’ll start with your argument that teaching the same content every year somehow reduces planning. It doesn’t. Teachers revise lessons each year. We have to because students are huge walking variables and what worked last year may not work for the new group. Also, what we did last year may not have worked in the first place. We don’t just plan content. We plan delivery. Also, many teachers are moved around a lot. I have taught 13 different courses in my career. That’s 13 new curricula I had to make my own.

Also, yes… I do have to care about data. These tests are only “junk tests” and a “colossal waste” of time if I do what you suggest, which appears to be to ignore them. Like it or not, they are here to stay. Blowing them off is not in your child’s best interest. If I plan accordingly, though, I can find meaningful ways to work this data back into my lessons. Your student, therefore, won’t be wasting time in class because I spent sufficient time at home to make sure we don’t have to.

I spent ALL of my time in class “just teaching.” I spend MOST of my time at home planning. I spent SOME time at home grading. This is the reality of a teacher’s life. You may think there are solutions when you look in from the outside, but I promise you there is nothing you can suggest that teachers haven’t already tried.

The only solution is to reduce workload. Those of us within the profession know this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

tell me you’ve never been in a classroom without telling me…

[Anonymous]

Just grade the freaking papers. Or don't bother giving graded assignments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

Here's your issue: "The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress."
This relentless measuring/testing focus on SOLs and all the other junk tests is a colossal waste of both teacher and student time, and as a parent I frankly want teachers to just teach instead of spending lots of time with this. If you compare now to a generation ago, this is the main time sink that creeped into classrooms, especially when combined with technological tool nonsense that gives minimal added value.

So you don't need anymore data than what you already get when you grade assignments, as that tells you who is and isn't doing well. Additionally, after your first year and assuming you're reteaching the same grade or class, lesson planning should mainly be reusing what worked well last year.

I’m assuming you are not a teacher? This post reads as if it was written by somebody who doesn’t actually understand how teaching works. I’ll start with your argument that teaching the same content every year somehow reduces planning. It doesn’t. Teachers revise lessons each year. We have to because students are huge walking variables and what worked last year may not work for the new group. Also, what we did last year may not have worked in the first place. We don’t just plan content. We plan delivery. Also, many teachers are moved around a lot. I have taught 13 different courses in my career. That’s 13 new curricula I had to make my own.

Also, yes… I do have to care about data. These tests are only “junk tests” and a “colossal waste” of time if I do what you suggest, which appears to be to ignore them. Like it or not, they are here to stay. Blowing them off is not in your child’s best interest. If I plan accordingly, though, I can find meaningful ways to work this data back into my lessons. Your student, therefore, won’t be wasting time in class because I spent sufficient time at home to make sure we don’t have to.

I spent ALL of my time in class “just teaching.” I spend MOST of my time at home planning. I spent SOME time at home grading. This is the reality of a teacher’s life. You may think there are solutions when you look in from the outside, but I promise you there is nothing you can suggest that teachers haven’t already tried.

The only solution is to reduce workload. Those of us within the profession know this.

I do teach, and what I've suggested has worked well for me. Earlier posters suggesting that teachers focus on teaching and ignore the 'fluff' stuff such as admin meetings that don't have a point are right, that's one thing you can do now if the admins refuse to reduce the load, even though it will piss them off. What you described above sounds good, but in real life is pretty useless for many kids. Anecdotally, any and all tests my kid does in school are a complete waste of time, time that could have been better used by giving them more challenging things to do/learn. I'm sure I'm far from the only one here. There is a large pool of kids who are simply bored of the whole nonsense that is called testing/tracking/measuring/endless amounts of time. You're not really helping those kids in any way and adding extra work for yourself by participating in the never ending testing/measuring nonsense. Yes it sucks that they make you do it, but teachers just have to stand up and pick their fight together against the massive admin bureaucracy. The real issue is that teachers are unable to effectively band with parents and together commit to simply teaching kids and ignoring all of the extra crap that they make you do that is not related to teaching. Also, what you've described above is not necessary, because if indeed you spend ALL 100% of the time teaching as you said, you should already know how each kid is doing over the course of each week.

You do not need to spend incredible amounts of time replanning your lessons, in the same subject. Let's say you taught geometry one year, you have almost everything you need the second time around, you only need to redo stuff that didn't work well. Geometry doesn't change and kids entering your classroom on average don't change year over year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

Here's your issue: "The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress."
This relentless measuring/testing focus on SOLs and all the other junk tests is a colossal waste of both teacher and student time, and as a parent I frankly want teachers to just teach instead of spending lots of time with this. If you compare now to a generation ago, this is the main time sink that creeped into classrooms, especially when combined with technological tool nonsense that gives minimal added value.

So you don't need anymore data than what you already get when you grade assignments, as that tells you who is and isn't doing well. Additionally, after your first year and assuming you're reteaching the same grade or class, lesson planning should mainly be reusing what worked well last year.

I’m assuming you are not a teacher? This post reads as if it was written by somebody who doesn’t actually understand how teaching works. I’ll start with your argument that teaching the same content every year somehow reduces planning. It doesn’t. Teachers revise lessons each year. We have to because students are huge walking variables and what worked last year may not work for the new group. Also, what we did last year may not have worked in the first place. We don’t just plan content. We plan delivery. Also, many teachers are moved around a lot. I have taught 13 different courses in my career. That’s 13 new curricula I had to make my own.

Also, yes… I do have to care about data. These tests are only “junk tests” and a “colossal waste” of time if I do what you suggest, which appears to be to ignore them. Like it or not, they are here to stay. Blowing them off is not in your child’s best interest. If I plan accordingly, though, I can find meaningful ways to work this data back into my lessons. Your student, therefore, won’t be wasting time in class because I spent sufficient time at home to make sure we don’t have to.

I spent ALL of my time in class “just teaching.” I spend MOST of my time at home planning. I spent SOME time at home grading. This is the reality of a teacher’s life. You may think there are solutions when you look in from the outside, but I promise you there is nothing you can suggest that teachers haven’t already tried.

The only solution is to reduce workload. Those of us within the profession know this.

I do teach, and what I've suggested has worked well for me. Earlier posters suggesting that teachers focus on teaching and ignore the 'fluff' stuff such as admin meetings that don't have a point are right, that's one thing you can do now if the admins refuse to reduce the load, even though it will piss them off. What you described above sounds good, but in real life is pretty useless for many kids. Anecdotally, any and all tests my kid does in school are a complete waste of time, time that could have been better used by giving them more challenging things to do/learn. I'm sure I'm far from the only one here. There is a large pool of kids who are simply bored of the whole nonsense that is called testing/tracking/measuring/endless amounts of time. You're not really helping those kids in any way and adding extra work for yourself by participating in the never ending testing/measuring nonsense. Yes it sucks that they make you do it, but teachers just have to stand up and pick their fight together against the massive admin bureaucracy. The real issue is that teachers are unable to effectively band with parents and together commit to simply teaching kids and ignoring all of the extra crap that they make you do that is not related to teaching. Also, what you've described above is not necessary, because if indeed you spend ALL 100% of the time teaching as you said, you should already know how each kid is doing over the course of each week.

You do not need to spend incredible amounts of time replanning your lessons, in the same subject. Let's say you taught geometry one year, you have almost everything you need the second time around, you only need to redo stuff that didn't work well. Geometry doesn't change and kids entering your classroom on average don't change year over year.

Hear, hear. But the bolded portion will never happen because teachers want parents to advocate for them while they are actively not teaching kids (grading is part of teaching). Why would I band together with teachers who have decided educating my kids is less important than admin fluff? That gives me zero assurance that they'll actually start grading if the admin fluff is reduced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

Who said I wasn’t grading work? I am, when I have time. It is not more important than my family on nights and weekends. I’m simply saying if it’s a priority for YOU (since is low in my scale) work with admin to reduce our other prities.

So you're saying it's up to parents to improve your working conditions and until we do, our children aren't going to get timely feedback on their work? That sounds like blackmail.

This is funny....blackmail

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an ongoing issue and I'm not a teacher hater, I respect teachers, but this happens consistently in my experience with high school.

Last year, my child received a poor grade for the quarter and the teacher contacted us with concerns about the student's performance -- this was once the quarter was over. I asked how does it get to this point? Shouldn't there have obvious signs the quarter wasn't going well? Teacher didn't know until after the quarter was done as the grades weren't done until the end of the quarter and she assumed everything was okay since the kid did fine the previous quarter.

Grading should happen consistently and timely throughout a quarter so that kids know where they stand, parents can check in and see what's going on, and teachers know if they need to course adjust.

I don't expect grading to happen instantaneously, but it should happen within a week of an assignment being handed in or a test being completed.

You all don’t realize that all teachers would like to focus on teaching. We really would. Unfortunately we are a free and easily used labor source for administration and end up as the duct tape that makes schools which don’t have enough counselors, security guards, substitute teachers, or test administrators — keep running. I have little to no time outside of class to plan and grade and I am unwilling to use my weekends or evenings to do extra work. I’m not paid near enough to be working 70 hour weeks.

In any case, you might try to suck it up and appreciate whatever feedback and attention you get, when you get it. You might feel entitled to certain “services” from your teacher but what are you going to do if you don’t get what you think you should get? If you complain to administration, you can bet that you will not be winning the affection of your kid’s teacher and you are probably hastening the teacher exodus.

I cannot imagine having this attitude.

Come teach you'd imagine it fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a long-standing problem in FCPS with terrible consequences for students. But most teachers, particularly those who post here, will be incredibly defensive about it. They, quite frankly, do not seem to think that grading is important enough to prioritize over other tasks. And administrators must agree because there is never any change.

I'd lodge concerns, in writing, to the counselor and principle, but do not expect any change.

Which task should we drop so we can grade? Should I drop planning lessons? That means I won’t be ready when your child shows up in my classroom on Monday. Should I drop logging and analyzing student data? That means I’ll have no idea how well your child is doing over them. Maybe I should drop parking lot duty and cafeteria duty, even though my contract dictates that I am responsible for fulfilling them. Maybe I should drop answering the tsunami of parent and student emails I get each day, or I should refuse to go to IEP meetings.

I get less than an hour of work time each day. I usually have over 5 hours of work to do. There’s the math and that’s the reason grading takes a while.

If you want more timely feedback, then join teachers in the fight for more reasonable workloads. I’ve worked 6 hours already today, on a Saturday. I’m nowhere near done.

The teachers here who refuse to work on weekends have the right idea. They are forcing an appropriate work/life balance while I’ll burn out and quit.

Proving the OPs point. Sorry your job sucks. But that doesn’t change the fact that grading isn’t happening and childrens education is suffering because of it.

If teachers’ jobs suck, if teachers are suffering, then “children’s education suffering” does seem a likely outcome. Do you expect teachers to suffer even more for the “sake of the kids?” Oh no no. This is a job, my friend. Those of us who have been beaten down by the likes of you and yours have no incentive to try and martyr ourselves for ungrateful folks who *expect* us to do sacrifice our own personal lives as a matter of course.

+1, I’m not working more hours than I already am for “the sake of the kids.” If they are suffering that is the parents problem. I’m working 50 hours a week and that’s my limit. No it’s in the parents to find the solution or pressure FCPS to find one.

So you aren't grading work, knowing it adversely affects children, in an effort to pressure admin to do something? You are using the kids to further your efforts to enact change. How did you feel about the asylum seekers being shipped to Martha's Vineyard?

They aren’t going to give hours and hours (yes, it takes that long) of their unpaid personal time to grade “for the chiiiiiiildrrreeeeen.” Deal with it.

Teacher here. This is the answer right here. I spent years working all day every day. I missed my own children’s performances, meets, and games. I delayed doctor appointments. I missed dinners with extended family. I even cancelled a family trip once. I lost ten years because I prioritized my job over my life.

I’m not doing it anymore. The choice is between demanding a work/life balance and quitting. Papers will be returned eventually.

Why not choose to not do other parts of your job, ones that don't affect the kids? Refuse the stupid admin meeting. Refuse lunch or drop off duty. Yes, that's more difficult to refuse those, but they will be more effective in getting your point across because admin will be directly impacted. Right now, the kids suffer and admin doesn't care so nothing will change and kids continue to be hurt.

That’s the problem: ALL aspects of my job affect the kids. Planning takes most of my time. If I don’t plan, your child doesn’t get an engaging, meaningful lesson. The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress.

Lunch duty is written into my contract. If I don’t go, all that will happen is I will get written up. I care about my job, so being defiant isn’t going to work for me.

There’s nothing to give up. The only thing that doesn’t have a rigid due date is my grading, so it is last priority. It has to be. I’m already working instead of eating my lunch. I’m already working instead of taking a much-needed break. (I don’t get 10 minutes at a water cooler to just chat with colleagues.) I work as I wait for meetings to start. I use my time very effectively and still can’t get my job done in the 55 hours I allow each week. I got it done when I was working 70, but that’s not happening anymore.

If there were a solution, I would have already thought of it. I’m very good at what I do. The truth is teachers are too overburdened. We need to be responsible for fewer classes during the day so we have more time. Period.

Here's your issue: "The meetings are almost always about benchmarks and data, so if I don’t go I am not giving proper attention to student progress."
This relentless measuring/testing focus on SOLs and all the other junk tests is a colossal waste of both teacher and student time, and as a parent I frankly want teachers to just teach instead of spending lots of time with this. If you compare now to a generation ago, this is the main time sink that creeped into classrooms, especially when combined with technological tool nonsense that gives minimal added value.

So you don't need anymore data than what you already get when you grade assignments, as that tells you who is and isn't doing well. Additionally, after your first year and assuming you're reteaching the same grade or class, lesson planning should mainly be reusing what worked well last year.

I’m assuming you are not a teacher? This post reads as if it was written by somebody who doesn’t actually understand how teaching works. I’ll start with your argument that teaching the same content every year somehow reduces planning. It doesn’t. Teachers revise lessons each year. We have to because students are huge walking variables and what worked last year may not work for the new group. Also, what we did last year may not have worked in the first place. We don’t just plan content. We plan delivery. Also, many teachers are moved around a lot. I have taught 13 different courses in my career. That’s 13 new curricula I had to make my own.

Also, yes… I do have to care about data. These tests are only “junk tests” and a “colossal waste” of time if I do what you suggest, which appears to be to ignore them. Like it or not, they are here to stay. Blowing them off is not in your child’s best interest. If I plan accordingly, though, I can find meaningful ways to work this data back into my lessons. Your student, therefore, won’t be wasting time in class because I spent sufficient time at home to make sure we don’t have to.

I spent ALL of my time in class “just teaching.” I spend MOST of my time at home planning. I spent SOME time at home grading. This is the reality of a teacher’s life. You may think there are solutions when you look in from the outside, but I promise you there is nothing you can suggest that teachers haven’t already tried.

The only solution is to reduce workload. Those of us within the profession know this.

DP. This is the solution. Reducing or eliminating all these tests and all this data. You don't see it or aren't willing to put the first step of working towards it which is saying it. Not even anonymously. But some teachers and some (many) parents realize it. We could all get together and work towards making it happen. Those of us who have already realized that these tests are too much and need to go.