This Whole Ethnic Studies Ban in Arizona...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Denial of jobs opps, denial of higher education opps, denial of cultural expression opps in a variety of forums, denial of political opps, when choosing to use ones heritage language in a variety of forums= language suppression. And let's remember, the ussr came to lithunia - not the other way around.

Wow, that sounds just like the experience of Mexicans living in what's today Arizona before the Mexican-American war. That seems like an important thing to teach the descendants of those people, doesn't it?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Not too subtle, too idiotic. Denial of jobs opps, denial of higher education opps, denial of cultural expression opps in a variety of forums, denial of political opps, when choosing to use ones heritage language in a variety of forums= language suppression. And let's remember, the ussr came to lithunia - not the other way around.

The types of denials that you are listing were almost entirely limited to those opportunities dependent upon the wider Soviet Union. If someone wanted to work within Lithuania, they didn't need to know Russian. On the other hand, running an enterprise that had facilities in five different republics required knowing Russian. Attending Vilnius University did not require Russian language skills. Attending Moscow University did. The same is basically true with every other item on your list. The fact remains, Lithuanians always could, and often did, choose Lithuanian as their primary language.

Remember, your claim was not that there was Soviet interference with use of the Lithuanian language. Your claim was that Lithuanians were denied their language. You were wrong when you first made that statement and you are still wrong, despite your efforts to redefine your argument.

[Anonymous]

Seriously - just STOP. Lithuanians were oppressed in language and heritage from the time they were invaded to the time they threw off the Russian mantle. You sound abolitely idiotic to assert that Lithuanians did not have to make hard language choices (nevermind political) to have any opportunities under the ussr. The country is still in recovery from it's rape. I have relatives there. Shut up.

Regarding the state of Mexicans on the american side of the border after the Mexican American war- we have no official language in the us, second language coursework And bilingual Ed are offered variously on public dollars, job opps abound for bilingual speakers of spanish and English, one could argue that while Lithuania was annexed entirley huge swaths of Mexico remained after the Mexican American war for those who disagreed vehemently with the ideals of the new nations, and mexico itself was a new nation. Lithuania had a thousand year history and identity- Lets see, Mexico had existed for about 25 years - and was under a dictatorship when the land was annexed. What was Mexico prior? Spanish colonies pillaging indigenous peoples. Mexico's national identity solidifies long after Texas and California became part of the us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lithuania had a thousand year history and identity- Lets see, Mexico had existed for about 25 years - and was under a dictatorship when the land was annexed. What was Mexico prior? Spanish colonies pillaging indigenous peoples. Mexico's national identity solidifies long after Texas and California became part of the us.

This is a great illustration of why a Chicano/Mexican history class is needed. What's now the Southwest United States was home to a series of cultures and empires for a thousand years and more--some minor, some great; some peaceful, some frighteningly warlike. It's not about Mexican national identity--it's about the history of the place and, in many cases, the history of these children's ancestors. To dismiss that history as "Spanish colonies pillaging indigenous peoples," as though the indigenous people had neither agency nor history, is a gross misconception and an insult to those indigenous peoples and their descendants.

[Anonymous]

Oh pardon my gross ignorance - I thought we were referring to the claims the COUNTRY of Mexico has on Texas and ca. Ironically, the greatest threat to Nahuatl languages was Mexican government language policies of the 20th century. For heavens sake, what does this have to do with la raza classes teaching that American democracy is a brand of hate and oppression? I encourage everyone to go learn Quechua if you have the desire, tho Spanish os far more useful.

[Anonymous]

No, I was referring to the human beings who lived in one place and kept having it taken over by other empires (Spain & then America). Those people deserve to be taught that their history is far more than "Spanish colonies pillaging indigenous peoples."

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Seriously - just STOP. Lithuanians were oppressed in language and heritage from the time they were invaded to the time they threw off the Russian mantle. You sound abolitely idiotic to assert that Lithuanians did not have to make hard language choices (nevermind political) to have any opportunities under the ussr. The country is still in recovery from it's rape. I have relatives there. Shut up.

This will be my last post on this topic and you are free to have the last word. Your statement to which I objected is that Lithuanians were denied their language. That is not true. They may well have had to make hard choices and I never asserted otherwise (I'll ask again, why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?). Many may have considered themselves oppressed -- indeed, many were deported and suffered terribly. But, they were not denied their language. It says a lot that you would rather tell me to "shut up" than to hear the truth. But, the truth is that your statement was wrong. Someone who is so plainly wrong should probably make much less use of terms such as "idiot" and "idiotic".

[Anonymous]

I hear Arizona is considering repeal of their law becasue of all the arguments about Lithuania that it has ignited across the country.

[Anonymous]

You're parsing; I'm not sure why you are so smug about splitting hairs. Sure youre right you wax victorious Lithuanians were not denied their language just meaningful political economic academic and cultural opportunities to use it and sovreignity in those decisions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hear Arizona is considering repeal of their law becasue of all the arguments about Lithuania that it has ignited across the country.

Best. Post. Ever.

(The one joy of this discussion is that it's gotten me thinking about Vilnius, which I find to be an incredibly beautiful and fun word.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seriously - just STOP. Lithuanians were oppressed in language and heritage from the time they were invaded to the time they threw off the Russian mantle. You sound abolitely idiotic to assert that Lithuanians did not have to make hard language choices (nevermind political) to have any opportunities under the ussr. The country is still in recovery from it's rape. I have relatives there. Shut up.

Regarding the state of Mexicans on the american side of the border after the Mexican American war- we have no official language in the us, second language coursework And bilingual Ed are offered variously on public dollars, job opps abound for bilingual speakers of spanish and English, one could argue that

while Lithuania was annexed entirley huge swaths of Mexico remained after the Mexican American war for those who disagreed vehemently with the ideals of the new nations, and mexico itself was a new nation. Lithuania had a thousand year history and identity- Lets see, Mexico had existed for about 25 years - and was under a dictatorship when the land was annexed. What was Mexico prior? Spanish colonies pillaging indigenous peoples.

Mexico's national identity solidifies long after Texas and California became part of the us.

OMG do you not see the irony here? Both countries have 1000 year histories. Both were conquered or overtaken by a foreign power (Spanish vs. Polish and Russian). Both had neighboring powers take over half of its land, as both Mexico and Lithuania are a fraction of their former size. You both formed your first constitutional democratic governments within a single year of each other (1917 vs. 1918).

And yet instead of seeing the great similarities in your histories, you disparage Mexico? This is just chauvinism.

If Mexico is a new nation, then Lithuania, hardly recognizable from 13th century Lithuania either in its borders, its population, or to some extent even its practically Polish culture, is newer still. If you are entitled to point to your 13th century roots, then certainly the Mexican people can do the same with at least the same authority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh pardon my gross ignorance - I thought we were referring to the claims the COUNTRY of Mexico has on Texas and ca. Ironically, the greatest threat to Nahuatl languages was Mexican government language policies of the 20th century. For heavens sake, what does this have to do with la raza classes teaching that American democracy is a brand of hate and oppression? I encourage everyone to go learn Quechua if you have the desire, tho Spanish os far more useful.

What are you talking about? Quechua is a South American language, and Mexico recognizes over 60 national languages, none of which is Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hear Arizona is considering repeal of their law becasue of all the arguments about Lithuania that it has ignited across the country.

I'm the pp about Lithuania. Have to admit, you made me laugh and laugh with the above. Many thanks!

[Anonymous]

Yes the whole planet has 1000 year histories so you are saying that the USA has a special obligation to teach the 1,000 year history of the land currently called Mexico or formerly called Mexico to recent Mexican and central American immigrants? I'm a bit unclear here. Because i'd like to see the documented demand for such special instruction from the ancestors of the few indigenous south American peopless and recent spnoah colonists turned mexicans who ended up on the American side of the border in 1825. These are the ones asking for targete programming?

And yes, the Spanish colonies and the Mexican nation were responsible for as much intentional language annihilation of indigenous people as any other colonizer. Az acknowledging our past actions in this arena has exempted native American culture reclamation studies from
this law.

[Anonymous]

Mexican Language Policy through 20th c.

"After the independence the government initiated an educational system with the primary aim of Hispanization of the native populations. This policy was based on the idea was that this would help the indigenous peoples become a more integrated part of the new Mexican nation[citation needed].

Except for the Second Mexican Empire, led by the Habsburg Maximilian I, no Mexican government tried to prevent the loss of indigenous languages during the 19th century.[citation needed]

In 1889, Antonio García Cubas estimated that 38% of Mexicans spoke an indigenous language, down from 60% in 1820. By the end of the 20th century, this figure had fallen to 6%.

For most of the 20th century successive governments denied native tongues the status of valid languages. Indigenous students were forbidden to speak their native languages in school and were often punished for doing so"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Mexico