This Whole Ethnic Studies Ban in Arizona...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Worth teaching appreciation, worth passing on--perhaps this is what binds a nation of immigrants, some appreciation for what they gave us, and some sense of wanting to uphold, valorize and pass it along to future generations. I am fine with culture studies etc. but save the Dolores Huerta rhetoric for non-public dollars and certainly require public education to affirm at least some traditions given to us by these founders, and not only the traditions of each little subsequent mini-group.

The founding father were a mini-group.
The traditions you are talking about probably are is not assassinating abortion doctors, starting wars over non-existent WMD, nuclear bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima
etc etc
I would rather not go on
Either way, the mini groups should be able to retain their language and culture, because the world is changing and so is the job market and it will be a loss if they are lose their language skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are also a nation with founding values, a vision, core documents and a belief that despite some of what that group of white men founders did wrong--they were ALSO the founders of the first democracy on the face of the earth since the pseudo democracies of Greece and Rome, and then its caretakers--as are we all today. Worth teaching appreciation, worth passing on--.

And not the first nation to give women the vote, but one that lagged behind the civilized world...
Colonialist land grabbers, and the red man can shine with his absense
1/3 of the nation is african american, but the schools do not teach african history. Just american history and its ideals, and a little about Europe.

It's only about 12%. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are also a nation with founding values, a vision, core documents and a belief that despite some of what that group of white men founders did wrong--they were ALSO the founders of the first democracy on the face of the earth since the pseudo democracies of Greece and Rome, and then its caretakers--as are we all today. Worth teaching appreciation, worth passing on--.

And not the first nation to give women the vote, but one that lagged behind the civilized world...
Colonialist land grabbers, and the red man can shine with his absense
1/3 of the nation is african american, but the schools do not teach african history. Just american history and its ideals, and a little about Europe.

Poorly constructed argument. 12-13% of Americans of of African descent. A percent or two for Native Americans. The other 85% are of European or Asian extraction. 100% are American citizens (except these border jumpers). So why shouldn't American citizens learn American history? And why would you think it wrong that our schools do not have African history in the curriculum? American history includes revolution from England, our founding documents (and arguably the Western political and social philosophies that inspired them), Barbary wars (piracy is not new!), the slave trade, abolition, the Civil war, western expansion, terrible treatment of native peoples, industrial revolution and mass immigration from Europe (in the east) and lesser Chinese immigration (in the west),the Spanish-American war, two World wars, both fought in Europe, one also with a Pacific theater and North African theater, civil rights, equal rights, and on and on. This list is not all inclusive, but aside from the Barbary wars and the slave trade, American history does not intersect too much with African (assuming you mean the continent) history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are also a nation with founding values, a vision, core documents and a belief that despite some of what that group of white men founders did wrong--they were ALSO the founders of the first democracy on the face of the earth since the pseudo democracies of Greece and Rome, and then its caretakers--as are we all today. Worth teaching appreciation, worth passing on--.

And not the first nation to give women the vote, but one that lagged behind the civilized world...
Colonialist land grabbers, and the red man can shine with his absense
1/3 of the nation is african american, but the schools do not teach african history. Just american history and its ideals, and a little about Europe.

It's only about 12%. Just saying.

Yes, 1/3 of the nation are black American studying American history. Lots of African history is introduced along the way. but college is a great time to delve into 'roots' pre-coming to America studies--colonialism in Africa, it's lasting ill effects, the failure that was Liberia, how black chieftans colluded with Arab traders to sell slaves, ongoing slavery to this day in Africa, female circumcision, lots of lovely stuff to study! This is about priorities for K-12 public school children--Mexican American, African American, German American, English American...oooh what's the common thread? All American. Oh my yes, we are a nation. Not a confederation of ethnic tribes. Fancy that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are also a nation with founding values, a vision, core documents and a belief that despite some of what that group of white men founders did wrong--they were ALSO the founders of the first democracy on the face of the earth since the pseudo democracies of Greece and Rome, and then its caretakers--as are we all today. Worth teaching appreciation, worth passing on--.

And not the first nation to give women the vote, but one that lagged behind the civilized world...
Colonialist land grabbers, and the red man can shine with his absense
1/3 of the nation is african american, but the schools do not teach african history. Just american history and its ideals, and a little about Europe.

It's only about 12%. Just saying.

Yes, 1/3 of the nation are black American studying American history. Lots of African history is introduced along the way. but college is a great time to delve into 'roots' pre-coming to America studies--colonialism in Africa, it's lasting ill effects, the failure that was Liberia, how black chieftans colluded with Arab traders to sell slaves, ongoing slavery to this day in Africa, female circumcision, lots of lovely stuff to study! This is about priorities for K-12 public school children--Mexican American, African American, German American, English American...oooh what's the common thread? All American. Oh my yes, we are a nation. Not a confederation of ethnic tribes. Fancy that!

I don't tend to throw this word around, but you are coming off as really racist. If you think that is a balanced portrayal of African culture or history, you have a serious screw loose. Prove me wrong by writing back about ten postitive contributions of Africa to society as a whole.

[Anonymous]

I think it's racist to suggest black kids learn African history over American ( and presumably white kids European?) American kids should learn American history and where it intersects with other cultures when relevant, or as part of an additional to the core curriculum elective study. Sorry not going to take you up on your ten things Africa has given the world homework assignment (um, homo erectus?) as of course in addition to africas glories and the horrors of colonialism/white mans burden lesson I would expect some other aspects of African history/ culture to be taught in this Africa class pp asked for, just as children here learn about the effect of smallpox in native americans or the inconsistencies of slavery with our founding vision it is interesting to learn about the complicity of Africans in the slave trade or the fact that slaves exist in Africa today. Would that side of the story be taught in pp's African studies class? Sorry if you don't get my point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's racist to suggest black kids learn African history over American ( and presumably white kids European?) American kids should learn American history and where it intersects with other cultures when relevant, or as part of an additional to the core curriculum elective study. Sorry not going to take you up on your ten things Africa has given the world homework assignment (um, homo erectus?) as of course in addition to africas glories and the horrors of colonialism/white mans burden lesson I would expect some other aspects of African history/ culture to be taught in this Africa class pp asked for, just as children here learn about the effect of smallpox in native americans or the inconsistencies of slavery with our founding vision it is interesting to learn about the complicity of Africans in the slave trade or the fact that slaves exist in Africa today. Would that side of the story be taught in pp's African studies class? Sorry if you don't get my point.

On point A, I defy you to find a single poster who said to teach it "over" American history.


On point B, OK, so given that latino history intersects greatly with American history (um, Mexican American war?, latino people living in Arizona, Texas, NM, and California since they became a part of our country) you should have no problem with teaching it in public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's racist to suggest black kids learn African history over American ( and presumably white kids European?) American kids should learn American history and where it intersects with other cultures when relevant, or as part of an additional to the core curriculum elective study. Sorry not going to take you up on your ten things Africa has given the world homework assignment (um, homo erectus?) as of course in addition to africas glories and the horrors of colonialism/white mans burden lesson I would expect some other aspects of African history/ culture to be taught in this Africa class pp asked for, just as children here learn about the effect of smallpox in native americans or the inconsistencies of slavery with our founding vision it is interesting to learn about the complicity of Africans in the slave trade or the fact that slaves exist in Africa today. Would that side of the story be taught in pp's African studies class? Sorry if you don't get my point.

On point A, I defy you to find a single poster who said to teach it "over" American history.


On point B, OK, so given that latino history intersects greatly with American history (um, Mexican American war?, latino people living in Arizona, Texas, NM, and California since they became a part of our country) you should have no problem with teaching it in public schools.

No one is arguing that the intersection should not be taught - rather there should not be a full class that is subscribed to by 99% mexican american students should not be offered that instructs about how Mexico/Mexicans need to retake the Southwest to redress perceived grievances (maybe real grievances) that are many, many generations old.

To quote the Baltimore Sun:
"The law is simple. The law outlaws ethnic studies courses that promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group, or advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals. It also doesn't prevent honest discussion regarding America's history, as long as such discussion groups don't bar any students based on their skin color or ethnicity."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-arizona-ethnic-studies-20100517,0,408034.story for the full discussion. On its face, requiring that public schools NOT teach students that open revolt against our government is needed is not a bad thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's racist to suggest black kids learn African history over American ( and presumably white kids European?) American kids should learn American history and where it intersects with other cultures when relevant, or as part of an additional to the core curriculum elective study. Sorry not going to take you up on your ten things Africa has given the world homework assignment (um, homo erectus?) as of course in addition to africas glories and the horrors of colonialism/white mans burden lesson I would expect some other aspects of African history/ culture to be taught in this Africa class pp asked for, just as children here learn about the effect of smallpox in native americans or the inconsistencies of slavery with our founding vision it is interesting to learn about the complicity of Africans in the slave trade or the fact that slaves exist in Africa today. Would that side of the story be taught in pp's African studies class? Sorry if you don't get my point.

On point A, I defy you to find a single poster who said to teach it "over" American history.


On point B, OK, so given that latino history intersects greatly with American history (um, Mexican American war?, latino people living in Arizona, Texas, NM, and California since they became a part of our country) you should have no problem with teaching it in public schools.

No one is arguing that the intersection should not be taught - rather there should not be a full class that is subscribed to by 99% mexican american students should not be offered that instructs about how Mexico/Mexicans need to retake the Southwest to redress perceived grievances (maybe real grievances) that are many, many generations old.

To quote the Baltimore Sun:
"The law is simple. The law outlaws ethnic studies courses that promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group, or advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals. It also doesn't prevent honest discussion regarding America's history, as long as such discussion groups don't bar any students based on their skin color or ethnicity."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-arizona-ethnic-studies-20100517,0,408034.story for the full discussion. On its face, requiring that public schools NOT teach students that open revolt against our government is needed is not a bad thing?

You just cited, as evidence, a letter from a reader, not a reporter or even a journalist in an op-ed column. The person writing it keeps referring to the classes as "ethics studies" classes. Are you seriously going to use this as proof of the content of these courses?

[Anonymous]

Actually he or she cited what the law outlaws. It's pretty straightforward. Teach what's not outlawed. Use
common sense. I would just add that we teach some regard for common tenets of democracy and American traditions - which are inclusive and reflective of our multilayered democracy and people. But the founders and their traditions count too. We teach the troubled treatment and rich heritage of native americans when / where appropriate - I woul suggest age appropriately - but let pre K studnets make their hand turkeys at thanksgiving without angsting too too much...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually he or she cited what the law outlaws. It's pretty straightforward. Teach what's not outlawed. Use
common sense. I would just add that we teach some regard for common tenets of democracy and American traditions - which are inclusive and reflective of our multilayered democracy and people. But the founders and their traditions count too. We teach the troubled treatment and rich heritage of native americans when / where appropriate - I woul suggest age appropriately - but let pre K studnets make their hand turkeys at thanksgiving without angsting too too much...

Let's take apart what is outlawed:

The law outlaws ethnic studies courses that :

promote the overthrow of the United States government,

This never happened. It is already illegal under U.S. law. They are suckering you by making you believe this is what is going on by writing it into the law.

promote resentment toward a race or class of people,

This is also not what the course curriculum is promoting. If you want to argue that retelling of US-Mexican history by necessity causes resentment, I guess you make your point but then we have to edit our American history books like the Communist countries did because some black kid is going to resent slavery, and some American Indian kid is going to resent the trail of tears.

are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group

,
Bingo. This is the only clause that actually bans what was going on in the schools.

or advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

Anything can be ethnic solidarity. Hell, St. Patrick's Day is ethnic solidarity, but they can't just outlaw that. But show me a part of the course curriculum that advocated against the "treatment of pupils as individuals".


The legislators wrote this with people like you in mind. You assume that the outrageous things outlawed were being done. I wrote this before, but you could outlaw the teaching of evolution and put in a clause that bans courses that "promote sex between humans and monkeys". Just because it's in the law does not mean it happened.

Do you want to know why Tom Horne, the school superintendent cited in your link, pushed this law that is packed with falsehoods? He's running for Attorney General. It is a campaign stunt.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the PP - this is not so much about outlawing actual behavior, but more about fanning the flames of xenophobia.

Personally, I think immigrants should be required to assimilate into the majority culture, so have zero problem with this. Also, I do not think it is inevitable that "white non-Latino Christians will be a minority in this country." That is only the case if our policies don't change, and you see in Arizona people trying to change exactly those policies. It is hard to blame them, I might add -- looking at how ethnic minorities are often treated around the world, not least in our own history in this country, why would anyone *want* their own ethnic group to become a minority?

Not much reading between the lines is required here. We need to protect the white race from becoming a minority. Time to step up and defend America from the hispanics -- bad economy = race baiting to win elections. The CS Monitor printed an article that absolutely astonished me with its xenophobic overtones:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Walter-Rodgers/2010/0330/Illegal-Hispanic-immigration-is-undermining-American-values

"California, now about 37 percent Latino, is expected to be majority Hispanic by 2042. A quarter of all Americans will probably be Latino in 40 years.

This trend has worrisome aspects. Imagine a huge, growing Hispanic underclass in America with a grudge, a burning sense of having been victimized by the “gringos.”

[Anonymous]

This is a letter written to the citizens of Tucson Arizona in 2007 by Tom Horne, Superintendent of Public Instruction.

Open Letter to the Citizens of Tucson

He criticises the ethnic studies program of ONE public school system, -- the Tucson Unfieid School Distcit -- and gives details as to exactly what he thought was wong with this particular program. If the program was as described in his letter, it wouldn't be the type of program I would support as an "ethnic studies" program.

http://www.ade.state.az.us/pio/press-releases/2008/pr06-11-08-openltr.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:American kids should learn American history and where it intersects with other cultures when relevant, or as part of an additional to the core curriculum elective study.

To quote the Baltimore Sun:
"The law is simple. The law outlaws ethnic studies courses that promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group, or advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals. It also doesn't prevent honest discussion regarding America's history, as long as such discussion groups don't bar any students based on their skin color or ethnicity."

Are people on this forum serious???
American kids should learn world history, not just where it inersects with american cultures, because it part of being an educated intelligent human being. And Africa does have history that is worth studying.

And what school teacher is going to get her students to overthrow the US government???

I know there are great teachers, but just that great, at least not in the public school system

[Anonymous]

Oh what nonsense that open letter is
From the open letter:

First, let’s spend a minute on underlying philosophy. I believe people are individuals, not exemplars of racial groups. What is important about people is what they know, what they can do, their ability to appreciate beauty, their character, and not what race into which they are born. They are entitled to be treated that way. It is fundamentally wrong to divide students up according to their racial group, and teach them separately.


My Take:
All people come from somewhere and everyon is entitled to know their past. Minorities should be respected and not expected to forget their past or their language. They have a rich cultural heritage.
Let us teach everyone in their own language then. At the moment the ruling classes have their own priveledged schools