Is it really that hard to get into college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Common Op. don't be ridiculous. Thousands of colleges out there.

Most of which are not worth going to if you are from an UMC family with a long history of attending top colleges and certain expectations, like coming from a top private school. Those of you who keep posting this flip can let your kids to no name and mediocre schools but for some people that’s just not acceptable.

Better get used to it.

My current senior is going to a top school, just like her siblings, thanks.

I just think those of you spouting the “thousands of colleges” being acceptable for DC area students don’t have a clue about how things are in certain circles of our country. Or maybe you are being deliberately obtuse. Most of those 1,000 colleges will never be acceptable to certain people. And they don’t have to be as they aren’t intended for those people. Of course there are a handful or two of less competitive schools that are fine for kids of these folks who aren’t academically strong or have learning challenges but for the most part there is a subset of acceptable schools and that won’t change. That’s what you are seeing on the DCUM college thread that seems to drive some posters crazy - the ones who keep posting the tripe about there being “thousands of colleges” and “people need to stop focusing on the same 50 schools” etc... You are trying to defeat the very heart of these people’s views on college - people whose families have been UMC and UC for generations, whose grands and greatgrands had degrees from top colleges, whose families have always invested in education and expect the next generation to do that same. It just is what it is. No point in trying to convince those folks differently.

What if their offspring is not admitted to the "subset of acceptable schools"?? Will the subset of acceptability widen? The times they are a changin'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to have to try really hard to convince me that where you go to undergrad matters a ton if you want to be a:

Occupational therapist
Pharmacist
Physical therapist
Teacher
Dietitian
Lawyer
Nurse
Police Officer
School counselor

You lost me at Lawyer, depending if you want Big Law, but I agree with the rest.

+1. While law school may be focused on LSAT scores, a "prestigious" undergrad can give you a bump at a "prestigious" law school. You may wind up with a Big Law job that you hate, though.

Wouldn't doctor be on the list, too? It's a combination of prerequisites (that can be obtained anywhere), GPA, MCAT scores.

I would add accounting. You might not get recruited for big 4 out of the gate if you go to a bad school but if you can pass the CPA I doubt you’ll end up destitute. Although it’s best to go to an AASCB accredited school (some programs are not accredited by them, they’re accredited by a different org).

I received my undergraduate degree in accounting from a no name school in my home country where my tuition was $20 a month. After moving to the US, I received Master’s in Accounting from a local college and was hired by a big 4 firm from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Fit matters more than ever, and quality of the education. If there's one thing I've learned it's that the Peter pressure in this area and the degree to which the branding hype is bought into is deeply unhealthy. Cast a wide net, and make no assumptions. There's a good school out there for your kid. But it probably won't be the ones you went to, or your peers went to. Your kid isn't all that attractive to them, and they care only about their brand.

+100 and it's not just DC but other big, affluent cities. I was just talking with a friend in the Bay Area whose daughter was a mess all weekend about committing to UC Davis vs UC San Diego. Davis is a much better fit for the student and she knows it but couldn't get over turning down the higher-ranked UCSD and what kids at school would say. There is no meaningful quality of education difference between those two schools and only about a 10-slot difference in the rank! But now, because of the toxic pressure around rankings, she's starting off her entrance to Davis (which she thankfully did commit to) feeling like she is somehow less-than. Her parents don't care about rankings and have been pushing all along to not pay so much attention but she gets this crap from classmates.

It does show me one bright side of my DD's really difficult junior year. She's not competitive for those brand-name schools so she can focus on fit and hopefully tune out the nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, if there are huge numbers of talented, hard-working kids who are not getting into the "top" schools and therefore are going to "second-tier" schools, then at those schools, they'll be surrounded by lots of talented, hard-working peers.

I've been thinking this lately, too. If highly qualified kids are spread among more schools, those next-tier schools become highly desirable, too.

[Anonymous]

They are only "screwed" if you have an extremely narrow definition of success. My advice is to put fit over prestige when the time comes to support your child around college admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to have to try really hard to convince me that where you go to undergrad matters a ton if you want to be a:

Occupational therapist
Pharmacist
Physical therapist
Teacher
Dietitian
Lawyer
Nurse
Police Officer
School counselor

Do not spend money on an expensive or out of state college for OT, PT, Dietician, Nurse - these all have caps on the salaries and are so dependent upon insurance rates. I know several people who went to expensive schools and took out loans for these jobs and they are very vocal about what a mistake it is. An OT I know had no clue how low the salaries are. I encountered a teacher with a masters who went thru grad school not understanding teacher salaries in the US.

+ 1 million. Dietitian here. It now requires a MS plus a post-grad internship. Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to have to try really hard to convince me that where you go to undergrad matters a ton if you want to be a:

Occupational therapist
Pharmacist
Physical therapist
Teacher
Dietitian
Lawyer
Nurse
Police Officer
School counselor

You lost me at Lawyer, depending if you want Big Law, but I agree with the rest.

+1. While law school may be focused on LSAT scores, a "prestigious" undergrad can give you a bump at a "prestigious" law school. You may wind up with a Big Law job that you hate, though.

Wouldn't doctor be on the list, too? It's a combination of prerequisites (that can be obtained anywhere), GPA, MCAT scores.

I would add accounting. You might not get recruited for big 4 out of the gate if you go to a bad school but if you can pass the CPA I doubt you’ll end up destitute. Although it’s best to go to an AASCB accredited school (some programs are not accredited by them, they’re accredited by a different org).

I received my undergraduate degree in accounting from a no name school in my home country where my tuition was $20 a month. After moving to the US, I received Master’s in Accounting from a local college and was hired by a big 4 firm from there.

I think this is one of the best “bang for your buck” majors. A lot of people don’t realize that you get get the 150 credits that are now required without having to get a master’s degree. Most state boards accept CLEP and community college credits if you’re just looking to increase your # of credits. Your home university doesn’t necessarily need to have accepted those credits.

[Anonymous]

"Do you mean merit aid, or need based aid? Tons, a large majority, in any event, of colleges give need based aid. Merit aid independent of aid is a smaller set, but many of those include the most selective universities and SLACs."

This info is wrong. The most selective schools do not give merit aid. If they do, it's to just a tiny sliver of people. Most merit aid comes from schools that are trying to convince you to go there instead of to a higher ranked or even equally ranked school. Think Loyola MD, Fordham, Santa Clara, Mt. St. Mary's, and so on. There are also some publics that give merit, like UNM, Arizona, and Alabama.

https://www.collegedata.com/resources/pay-your-way/how-to-get-merit-aid-from-colleges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Fit matters more than ever, and quality of the education. If there's one thing I've learned it's that the Peter pressure in this area and the degree to which the branding hype is bought into is deeply unhealthy. Cast a wide net, and make no assumptions. There's a good school out there for your kid. But it probably won't be the ones you went to, or your peers went to. Your kid isn't all that attractive to them, and they care only about their brand.

+100 and it's not just DC but other big, affluent cities. I was just talking with a friend in the Bay Area whose daughter was a mess all weekend about committing to UC Davis vs UC San Diego. Davis is a much better fit for the student and she knows it but couldn't get over turning down the higher-ranked UCSD and what kids at school would say. There is no meaningful quality of education difference between those two schools and only about a 10-slot difference in the rank! But now, because of the toxic pressure around rankings, she's starting off her entrance to Davis (which she thankfully did commit to) feeling like she is somehow less-than. Her parents don't care about rankings and have been pushing all along to not pay so much attention but she gets this crap from classmates.

It does show me one bright side of my DD's really difficult junior year. She's not competitive for those brand-name schools so she can focus on fit and hopefully tune out the nonsense.

+1000

Rankings really don't mean much and it's sad that our kids (and many parents) are made to feel inferior based on the college they pick. Ultimately how well you do in life has more to do with WHAT you do in college than where you attend college. Both of those schools are huge UC schools, ranked about the same---it's not like one is only 6K students so you are getting the advantages of smaller classes/more contact with profs/etc. Any real differences likely depend upon the specific major and what those opportunities are

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Do you mean merit aid, or need based aid? Tons, a large majority, in any event, of colleges give need based aid. Merit aid independent of aid is a smaller set, but many of those include the most selective universities and SLACs."

This info is wrong. The most selective schools do not give merit aid. If they do, it's to just a tiny sliver of people. Most merit aid comes from schools that are trying to convince you to go there instead of to a higher ranked or even equally ranked school. Think Loyola MD, Fordham, Santa Clara, Mt. St. Mary's, and so on. There are also some publics that give merit, like UNM, Arizona, and Alabama.

https://www.collegedata.com/resources/pay-your-way/how-to-get-merit-aid-from-colleges

+1 Merit aid is a tool to attract stronger students. Top ranked schools don't give it other than, in some cases, a very small number of competitive awards. Just had a conversation this weekend with a friend who was convinced their nephew got a merit scholarship to Princeton. Uh, no. He got need-based aid. Your siblings' income/assets just is not as high as you think it is and they give "need aid" to a higher income level than you might think.

IME looking at a wide range of schools, merit-giving colleges generally got prices down to be competitive with our VA state options, in the $25k-$40k range. We'd be full pay at non-merit-giving schools, expected to pay $60-$80k

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You’re going to have to try really hard to convince me that where you go to undergrad matters a ton if you want to be a:

Occupational therapist
Pharmacist
Physical therapist
Teacher
Dietitian
Lawyer
Nurse
Police Officer
School counselor

You lost me at Lawyer, depending if you want Big Law, but I agree with the rest.

+1. While law school may be focused on LSAT scores, a "prestigious" undergrad can give you a bump at a "prestigious" law school. You may wind up with a Big Law job that you hate, though.

Wouldn't doctor be on the list, too? It's a combination of prerequisites (that can be obtained anywhere), GPA, MCAT scores.

I would add accounting. You might not get recruited for big 4 out of the gate if you go to a bad school but if you can pass the CPA I doubt you’ll end up destitute. Although it’s best to go to an AASCB accredited school (some programs are not accredited by them, they’re accredited by a different org).

I received my undergraduate degree in accounting from a no name school in my home country where my tuition was $20 a month. After moving to the US, I received Master’s in Accounting from a local college and was hired by a big 4 firm from there.

I think this is one of the best “bang for your buck” majors. A lot of people don’t realize that you get get the 150 credits that are now required without having to get a master’s degree. Most state boards accept CLEP and community college credits if you’re just looking to increase your # of credits. Your home university doesn’t necessarily need to have accepted those credits.

except everything I've read says to avoid accounting because it is one job that will become so automated that the related jobs will be low level admin work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, if there are huge numbers of talented, hard-working kids who are not getting into the "top" schools and therefore are going to "second-tier" schools, then at those schools, they'll be surrounded by lots of talented, hard-working peers.

I've been thinking this lately, too. If highly qualified kids are spread among more schools, those next-tier schools become highly desirable, too.

This is exactly right. And all those bright kids will have each other along with more accessible educational resources and might not be taught by just TAs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do your schools favor legacy kids? That might help.

Also, the youth population has been increasing but will likely be on the decline when your kids are applying. That may make a difference.

But, overall, to gain admission to top schools, kids need to stand out -- grades, tests are only the beginning. They need awards, leadership, great writing, targeting supplemental essays, unique talents. Mine was in, but she worked like crazy for all of that. She also found lots to like at state flagship and mid-tier LAC, both of which would have served her well.

There will be options, but don't base everything on status. Even if your kid does "all the things,"top ranked admission may not happen. But, good thing there are a LOT of terrific schools out there that will educate your kid well.

Op here. My kids have no unique talents. Dh is successful while I am currently a SAHM.

Do Dh an I have to make opportunities for my kids to sound impressive?

Ugh I am torn on whether I should do this. I have one kid interested in becoming a doctor and one interested in business.

Both of those are more about the prestige and name recognition of your grad school/medical school. They could do well, work hard and excel in a state university as undergrads and that would serve them well for med school/MBA admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Common Op. don't be ridiculous. Thousands of colleges out there.

Most of which are not worth going to if you are from an UMC family with a long history of attending top colleges and certain expectations, like coming from a top private school. Those of you who keep posting this flip can let your kids to no name and mediocre schools but for some people that’s just not acceptable.

Better get used to it.

My current senior is going to a top school, just like her siblings, thanks.

I just think those of you spouting the “thousands of colleges” being acceptable for DC area students don’t have a clue about how things are in certain circles of our country. Or maybe you are being deliberately obtuse. Most of those 1,000 colleges will never be acceptable to certain people. And they don’t have to be as they aren’t intended for those people. Of course there are a handful or two of less competitive schools that are fine for kids of these folks who aren’t academically strong or have learning challenges but for the most part there is a subset of acceptable schools and that won’t change. That’s what you are seeing on the DCUM college thread that seems to drive some posters crazy - the ones who keep posting the tripe about there being “thousands of colleges” and “people need to stop focusing on the same 50 schools” etc... You are trying to defeat the very heart of these people’s views on college - people whose families have been UMC and UC for generations, whose grands and greatgrands had degrees from top colleges, whose families have always invested in education and expect the next generation to do that same. It just is what it is. No point in trying to convince those folks differently.

What if their offspring is not admitted to the "subset of acceptable schools"?? Will the subset of acceptability widen? The times they are a changin'.

+1 and who wants to go to school with PP's kids or have their own child become like that? Certain circles, indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do your schools favor legacy kids? That might help.

Also, the youth population has been increasing but will likely be on the decline when your kids are applying. That may make a difference.

But, overall, to gain admission to top schools, kids need to stand out -- grades, tests are only the beginning. They need awards, leadership, great writing, targeting supplemental essays, unique talents. Mine was in, but she worked like crazy for all of that. She also found lots to like at state flagship and mid-tier LAC, both of which would have served her well.

There will be options, but don't base everything on status. Even if your kid does "all the things,"top ranked admission may not happen. But, good thing there are a LOT of terrific schools out there that will educate your kid well.

Op here. My kids have no unique talents. Dh is successful while I am currently a SAHM.

Do Dh an I have to make opportunities for my kids to sound impressive?

Ugh I am torn on whether I should do this. I have one kid interested in becoming a doctor and one interested in business.

PP here. I know, thinking about boarding this crazy train is stressful! My first went all in. Just got into a few Ivies and top 10 -- yay! But, as I said above, would have been happy at other options too. She was passionate about all her talents/activities, and she was driven. My #2 is less so, but becoming a little more inclined as college gets closer. We are MC in MD. We can get good FA at a top school who uses the CSS or decent merit aid at a mid school or go in state. I remind #2 that if she doesn't add a little more "sparkle," she'll be looking at 2nd tier state options. Flagship has gotten competitive, and she won't get enough merit without more and won't get into the CSS schools w/o more. So, that motivated her a bit. And, though she's not the go-getter her sister is, she does like the activities she's in, and she has some unique ones -- car races for the engineering club (she's a driver, and they won last year), pro acting (SAG elig and worked at big local theatres for years) & school theatre, and creative writing. She plans to submit to a few pieces. She's also adhd and has been independently researching how it expresses in girls because it went unrecognized in her for a while. I'm hoping she could turn that into something. My part was to tell her to try at least one club in 9th, offer opportunities when I see them (casting notices, volunteer opps, writing competitions, summer opps, etc) and now to remind her of how she can build on that to demonstrate breadth of activities and leadership. It is really up to her, but I think it's fair to say she can't expect to be viable for some places without a few more pieces of flare!

It's OK not to need these bells and whistles if you have good state options that are attainable or plenty of money. But, it's also rewarding for kids to do some of this stuff -- to commit to and grow something. I don't think she would have joined the engineering club if I hadn't said join at least 1 club in 9th grade. But, it has opened up possibilities for her. She even invented a part for the car. So, maybe a nudge would beget some passion.

Also, if one wants to be a doctor, a small LAC can offer a great start where they can get to know faculty well and rise to the top of the class. We are in MD, and some say St. Mary's is better than UMD for getting into med school. Your kids will find options in both areas, even if they don't want to play this game. But, a little effort might yield something good. Good luck!