Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped

[Anonymous]

We need more lawyers trained in physics and philosophy to help them cultivate more creative and meaningful ways Of understanding success …

https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/which-major-has-highest-iq-64811

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ unsurprisingly, many top public and private lawyers attended non Ivy law schools … conflating attending Ivy law school with legal Success reveals a lack of analytical thinking and insight far more worrying than not attending top ranked law schools. Just plain lazy thinking trying on mystique of prestige.

Gloria Allred
Law school where she earned her law degree: Loyola Law School Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University
U.S. News law school rank: 72 (tie)

William Barr (not a fan but he did well)
Law school where he earned his law degree: George Washington University Law School in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 27 (tie)

President Joe Biden (mock him if you want but I think he is practical and highly effective)
Law school where he earned his law degree: Syracuse University College of Law in New York
U.S. News law school rank: 102 (tie)

Clarence Darrow
Law school that he attended without receiving a formal degree: University of Michigan—Ann Arbor Law School
U.S. News law school rank: 10 (tie)

Keith Harper
Law school where he earned his law degree: New York University School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 6 (tie)

Kamala Harris
Law school where she earned her law degree: University of California—Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco
U.S. News law school rank: 50 (tie)

Kevin Hasson
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Notre Dame Law School in Indiana
U.S. News law school rank: 22 (tie)

John Marshall
Law school he attended without earning a formal degree: William & Mary Law School in Virginia
U.S. News law school rank: 35 (tie)

Thurgood Marshall
Law school where he earned his law degree: Howard University School of Law in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)

Mitch McConnell (cynical and manipulative but super
Smart)
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Kentucky's J. David Rosenberg College of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 81 (tie)

Mike Moore
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Mississippi School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 98 (tie)
As the former attorney general of the state of Mississippi, Moore was the first U.S. state attorney general to sue tobacco companies for causing harm to public health.

Robert Mueller
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Virginia School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 8

Barry Scheck
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of California—Berkeley School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 9
Barry Scheck is a co-founder and special counsel with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit that helps wrongfully convicted prisoners prove their innocence and gain their freedom

Elizabeth Warren
Law school where she earned her law degree: Rutgers Law School in New Jersey
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Before she was elected to the U.S. Senate, Elizabeth Warren gained national prominence as a consumer advocate (she attended Harvard for undergrad so would ostensibly fit your legal flop criteria while in reality she used her law degree to fight for many public goods).

OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?

Why would you think this list would make anyone revise their assumption that you need to go to a top law school to be successful? Some of these people are from long ago (e.g., Marshall and Darrow), many have excelled in fields other than law (e.g., Biden, McConnell, Harris), some of them went to elite law schools that just aren't associated with colleges that are part of the Ivy League (e.g., Scheck, Mueller and Harper). And some of the rest are outliers. Bill Gates dropped out of college; that doesn't make not attending college a great plan for most people.

Here are the law schools of Biden's nominees to the federal circuit courts: Harvard, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, Memphis, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Cal-Hastings, Tulane.

So that's 14 of 18 who went to one of the Top 14 law schools in the country, which are the elite law schools.

33% Yale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ unsurprisingly, many top public and private lawyers attended non Ivy law schools … conflating attending Ivy law school with legal Success reveals a lack of analytical thinking and insight far more worrying than not attending top ranked law schools. Just plain lazy thinking trying on mystique of prestige.

Gloria Allred
Law school where she earned her law degree: Loyola Law School Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University
U.S. News law school rank: 72 (tie)

William Barr (not a fan but he did well)
Law school where he earned his law degree: George Washington University Law School in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 27 (tie)

President Joe Biden (mock him if you want but I think he is practical and highly effective)
Law school where he earned his law degree: Syracuse University College of Law in New York
U.S. News law school rank: 102 (tie)

Clarence Darrow
Law school that he attended without receiving a formal degree: University of Michigan—Ann Arbor Law School
U.S. News law school rank: 10 (tie)

Keith Harper
Law school where he earned his law degree: New York University School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 6 (tie)

Kamala Harris
Law school where she earned her law degree: University of California—Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco
U.S. News law school rank: 50 (tie)

Kevin Hasson
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Notre Dame Law School in Indiana
U.S. News law school rank: 22 (tie)

John Marshall
Law school he attended without earning a formal degree: William & Mary Law School in Virginia
U.S. News law school rank: 35 (tie)

Thurgood Marshall
Law school where he earned his law degree: Howard University School of Law in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)

Mitch McConnell (cynical and manipulative but super
Smart)
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Kentucky's J. David Rosenberg College of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 81 (tie)

Mike Moore
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Mississippi School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 98 (tie)
As the former attorney general of the state of Mississippi, Moore was the first U.S. state attorney general to sue tobacco companies for causing harm to public health.

Robert Mueller
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Virginia School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 8

Barry Scheck
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of California—Berkeley School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 9
Barry Scheck is a co-founder and special counsel with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit that helps wrongfully convicted prisoners prove their innocence and gain their freedom

Elizabeth Warren
Law school where she earned her law degree: Rutgers Law School in New Jersey
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Before she was elected to the U.S. Senate, Elizabeth Warren gained national prominence as a consumer advocate (she attended Harvard for undergrad so would ostensibly fit your legal flop criteria while in reality she used her law degree to fight for many public goods).

OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?

Why would you think this list would make anyone revise their assumption that you need to go to a top law school to be successful? Some of these people are from long ago (e.g., Marshall and Darrow), many have excelled in fields other than law (e.g., Biden, McConnell, Harris), some of them went to elite law schools that just aren't associated with colleges that are part of the Ivy League (e.g., Scheck, Mueller and Harper). And some of the rest are outliers. Bill Gates dropped out of college; that doesn't make not attending college a great plan for most people.

Here are the law schools of Biden's nominees to the federal circuit courts: Harvard, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, Memphis, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Cal-Hastings, Tulane.

So that's 14 of 18 who went to one of the Top 14 law schools in the country, which are the elite law schools.

33% Yale.

More a sign of self perpetuating gate keeping …
Pays to be part of Yale Skulls and Bones secret society … has worked for Yale law school Grads who were clearly not the sharpest knives in the drawer …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My BigLaw firm won’t look at anyone who didn’t graduate from a top-10 school. I fight them on it every year but those old white guys are stuck too firmly in their ways (with big sticks up their bums…)

Top tier Biglaw partner here. No Biglaw firm in this country "won't look at anyone who didn't graduate from a top-10 school." None. These firms, by definition, are "big," and collectively they go through thousands of associates every year. There are not enough law school graduates from the top 10 to meet their needs.

Give us a link to ONE Biglaw firm's website where there are no associates from outside the top ten. I'll wait.

Ok, it was a bit of an exaggeration, but I’m the hiring partner for our office’s lit department. I have to fight my colleagues every year to look at places like Georgetown. We have a very small number of associates from schools in the top 10-30, and almost none below that on the litigation side. Corporate is bigger and likely less selective. I’m not going to name my firm but it is a top tier Biglaw firm.

So we've gone from top 10 to top 30. Big difference,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a meeting scheduled with a founding attorney who is a double Harvard grad to do some estate planning for me. I noticed all of his associate attorneys had Ivy undergraduate universities listed in their bio but with very regional law schools. Like hypothetically one went to Yale but then went to Liberty University Law school. Another hypo is one went to Cornell then went to University of Baltimore Law. It had me thinking before I give him my business and almost certainly end up working with one of his associates what causes this to happen outside of drugs and family issues/tragedy? Burnout?

You're worried about law school credentials for ESTATE PLANNING?

Do him a favor and don't become a client of his firm.

[Anonymous]

If you are doing estate planning, you need to attract Liberty University type of super conservative clients as well as a others, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My BigLaw firm won’t look at anyone who didn’t graduate from a top-10 school. I fight them on it every year but those old white guys are stuck too firmly in their ways (with big sticks up their bums…)

Top tier Biglaw partner here. No Biglaw firm in this country "won't look at anyone who didn't graduate from a top-10 school." None. These firms, by definition, are "big," and collectively they go through thousands of associates every year. There are not enough law school graduates from the top 10 to meet their needs.

Give us a link to ONE Biglaw firm's website where there are no associates from outside the top ten. I'll wait.

Ok, it was a bit of an exaggeration, but I’m the hiring partner for our office’s lit department. I have to fight my colleagues every year to look at places like Georgetown. We have a very small number of associates from schools in the top 10-30, and almost none below that on the litigation side. Corporate is bigger and likely less selective. I’m not going to name my firm but it is a top tier Biglaw firm.

So we've gone from top 10 to top 30. Big difference,

Not really. As I said, it takes a lot of pushing to even interview candidates who aren’t at T10/14 schools. For summer associates I’d say 95+% are from the top 10 schools, we only do OCR at top 10 schools and Georgetown (for whatever reason). Lateral candidates probably make up the vast majority of the grade from schools ranked 10-30.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some might view me as a “flop”. I went from a DC Public School education to Yale, and then earned a PhD from a university that had one of the top programs in my field. I worked for over 20 years in a high-risk, public service oriented environment. During this period of my life I ended up being a primary caretaker for elderly family members. I’m now unemployed and looking for challenging, interesting work that is not emotionally draining in the ways that my previous jobs and caretaking have been. Although I’m glad that I made the decisions that I have made, I’ve loved my career, and I’m grateful that I was able to support and advocate for my family, I’m also not in a good position right now. Decades of emotionally demanding and even exhausting responsibilities can do that, and job hunting after an extended career break comes with challenges.

You sound like a truly loving and intelligent Human being who has enjoyed meaningful success and made meaningful sacrifices.

Best wishes for your job search.

Thank you! Truly!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is Yale to liberty a real example? That’s super extreme. I feel like you could do pretty mediocre at Yale and still get into a GW. Liberty is like….I dunno what would cause that.

I agree. Op sounds crazy but this one is actually notably odd.

[Anonymous]

I am one of these people. Top high school and college in my own country, got a prestigious postdoc in USA. Stuck as postdoc for years, finally moved out of accademia but had no experience with workplace politics and took the wrong side in an internal dispute. Brillant career basically ended abruptly; add in the mix some personal choices not very wise and here I am writing on this board while people that I trained are now managers. C’est la vie..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll bite, HYP undergrad here and T10 law school. Most of them got in via some sort of undeserving hook - legacy, prep school connections, or athlete in some random sport that only prep schools do.

They weren't smart and did terribly on the LSAT (or MCAT), but were told they were spectacular by parents their whole lives and couldn't give up the dream of being a lawyer or doctor. Went to whatever shitty school let them in. These were the same kids with mediocre SAT scores but the hook to get in.

It's somewhat shocking how many are like this. It's why I say you can tell who the deserving Ivy undergrads are in one second - double Ivy or the equivalent or they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

LOL you had me until this
The five double ivys I know -- and I mean all five of them -- are from the very richest (and whitest) families you can imagine, and all are noticeably, almost painfully average. Perhaps if they'd done a masters at Ohio State it wouldn't be as glaringly obvious that they are just credentials with no real oomph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?

Why would you think this list would make anyone revise their assumption that you need to go to a top law school to be successful? Some of these people are from long ago (e.g., Marshall and Darrow), many have excelled in fields other than law (e.g., Biden, McConnell, Harris), some of them went to elite law schools that just aren't associated with colleges that are part of the Ivy League (e.g., Scheck, Mueller and Harper). And some of the rest are outliers. Bill Gates dropped out of college; that doesn't make not attending college a great plan for most people.

Here are the law schools of Biden's nominees to the federal circuit courts: Harvard, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, Memphis, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Cal-Hastings, Tulane.

So that's 14 of 18 who went to one of the Top 14 law schools in the country, which are the elite law schools.

33% Yale.



Yale law school incubated the Federalist Society which engineered conservative takeover of the Supreme Court (thanks for nothing Yale) … The conservative led court is undermining hard won women’s rights and voting rights from non white minorities. The conservative led court made other anti democratic decisions (e.g. voting 5-4 along party lines to hand presidential election to Yale law grad George W Bush Jr after reversing Florida Supreme Court order for a recount and allowing corruptive influence of dark money in Citizen United decision. They don’t even pretend to not be biased anymore - Justice Clarence Thomas recently attended Heritage Foundation event with Dark Lord Mitch McConnell.

The Uber conservative current Supreme Court voted 6-3 to tear a gaping hole in the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Citing non existent voter fraud to make it harder for poor brown people to have their votes counted, the right wing ideologues are running the show now. What next? Upholding rights of children to arm themselves at school?

Once again, thanks for nothing Yale.

I’ll be impressed by graduates of Ivy law schools when they create a viable intellectual alternative to the Federalist Society and restore political balance to the Supreme Court.

It will probably be up to super smart law grads from big public schools to take the lead in taking back the Supreme Court (nine unelected elite lawyers) in order to uphold democratic values and public goods for all Americans (women, PoC, middle and working classes).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy. I came from a lower middle class background and bad high school; college was so hard and depressing, as I was so unprepared and had to make up for 12 years of subpar education in less than 4.

If I have gone to law school, I very well could have gone to some low ranked school, and I likely would have no idea that it mattered or that it was a bad idea. My mom would have been thrilled, an attorney in the family! It wasn’t like my classmates and I talked about BigLaw incomes vs sht law or what not. We chased girls and drank beer and crammed for tests. A lawyer was a lawyer as I knew.

What kind of Ivy did you go to where no one ever worried about getting into the most prestigious law/ other grad schools?? Because I went to a school that is not an Ivy, but still in the top 25, and we were ALL very much aware that law school ranking matters A LOT in terms of employment options. I felt like most people were aiming for the law school at our university, or somewhere ranked higher than that. Going to a law school that was ranked lower than the (T14) law school at my undergrad university was widely considered to be a disappointment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?

Why would you think this list would make anyone revise their assumption that you need to go to a top law school to be successful? Some of these people are from long ago (e.g., Marshall and Darrow), many have excelled in fields other than law (e.g., Biden, McConnell, Harris), some of them went to elite law schools that just aren't associated with colleges that are part of the Ivy League (e.g., Scheck, Mueller and Harper). And some of the rest are outliers. Bill Gates dropped out of college; that doesn't make not attending college a great plan for most people.

Here are the law schools of Biden's nominees to the federal circuit courts: Harvard, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, Memphis, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Cal-Hastings, Tulane.

So that's 14 of 18 who went to one of the Top 14 law schools in the country, which are the elite law schools.

33% Yale.

Yale law school incubated the Federalist Society which engineered conservative takeover of the Supreme Court (thanks for nothing Yale) … The conservative led court is undermining hard won women’s rights and voting rights from non white minorities. The conservative led court made other anti democratic decisions (e.g. voting 5-4 along party lines to hand presidential election to Yale law grad George W Bush Jr after reversing Florida Supreme Court order for a recount and allowing corruptive influence of dark money in Citizen United decision. They don’t even pretend to not be biased anymore - Justice Clarence Thomas recently attended Heritage Foundation event with Dark Lord Mitch McConnell.

The Uber conservative current Supreme Court voted 6-3 to tear a gaping hole in the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Citing non existent voter fraud to make it harder for poor brown people to have their votes counted, the right wing ideologues are running the show now. What next? Upholding rights of children to arm themselves at school?

Once again, thanks for nothing Yale.

I’ll be impressed by graduates of Ivy law schools when they create a viable intellectual alternative to the Federalist Society and restore political balance to the Supreme Court.

It will probably be up to super smart law grads from big public schools to take the lead in taking back the Supreme Court (nine unelected elite lawyers) in order to uphold democratic values and public goods for all Americans (women, PoC, middle and working classes).

Plus one

True success = serving Public goods.

Get cracking Ivy League lawyers and use your advantages and blessings in life to help others … and not with rhetorical self serving BS and self perpetuating power structures ..,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?

Why would you think this list would make anyone revise their assumption that you need to go to a top law school to be successful? Some of these people are from long ago (e.g., Marshall and Darrow), many have excelled in fields other than law (e.g., Biden, McConnell, Harris), some of them went to elite law schools that just aren't associated with colleges that are part of the Ivy League (e.g., Scheck, Mueller and Harper). And some of the rest are outliers. Bill Gates dropped out of college; that doesn't make not attending college a great plan for most people.

Here are the law schools of Biden's nominees to the federal circuit courts: Harvard, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Suffolk, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia, Memphis, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Yale, Cal-Hastings, Tulane.

So that's 14 of 18 who went to one of the Top 14 law schools in the country, which are the elite law schools.

33% Yale.

Yale law school incubated the Federalist Society which engineered conservative takeover of the Supreme Court (thanks for nothing Yale) … The conservative led court is undermining hard won women’s rights and voting rights from non white minorities. The conservative led court made other anti democratic decisions (e.g. voting 5-4 along party lines to hand presidential election to Yale law grad George W Bush Jr after reversing Florida Supreme Court order for a recount and allowing corruptive influence of dark money in Citizen United decision. They don’t even pretend to not be biased anymore - Justice Clarence Thomas recently attended Heritage Foundation event with Dark Lord Mitch McConnell.

The Uber conservative current Supreme Court voted 6-3 to tear a gaping hole in the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Citing non existent voter fraud to make it harder for poor brown people to have their votes counted, the right wing ideologues are running the show now. What next? Upholding rights of children to arm themselves at school?

Once again, thanks for nothing Yale.

I’ll be impressed by graduates of Ivy law schools when they create a viable intellectual alternative to the Federalist Society and restore political balance to the Supreme Court.

It will probably be up to super smart law grads from big public schools to take the lead in taking back the Supreme Court (nine unelected elite lawyers) in order to uphold democratic values and public goods for all Americans (women, PoC, middle and working classes).


Plus one

True success = serving Public goods.

Get cracking Ivy League lawyers and use your advantages and blessings in life to help others … and not with rhetorical self-serving BS and self perpetuating power structures … we need a Supreme Court that is committed to serving the public good (constitutionally of course) again.