How do you get into a top law school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The better the school, the higher the margin of error. As PP said -- at many top 50 if you are 10% and law review AND you interview well -- you are all set for big law. But T14 you could be top 50% or even lower and still have good prospects. You do not know how you will do in law school until you do it. I also agree with PP who said that you will not be the only super smart person there at the T50 -- there will be lots of rivals for those slots. So can you do it at a T50 --- yes of course. I went to a T50 and am Big law partner at a high big law firm. Out of my class there are less than 5 Big law partners though. So not an easy road.

My household could be called tale of two lawyers - DH - a lawyer who was a top performing student from a "lower ranked school" who eventually went on to success with Federal Clerkship , top firm equity partnership after busting his ass for years. And a kid currently attending a top 5 law school, with mediocre grades, big personality, who scored a great job summer associate after 1L at the firm of his choice. So far, it's astounding to all of us what an easier path the top 14 student, with zero grades and 1 online internship, has.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD's friend (not in Law school yet) got perfect LSAT (180 is it?) but DD says her college GPA isn't very good. Smart kid - one of those marching to her own drum beat - kinda kid. How do LS see kids like that?

If they're applying straight from college, not well. they need some track record of success in order to overcome mediocre GPA.

How bad is not "very good?" If it's lower than a 3.5 she won't get into the top 10. Which isn't necessarily the end of the world. She very well could get merit money from a law school in the lower end of the top 20-25. They like boosting up their average LSAT.

Law school stats shows 180 lsat score and below 3.5 gpa students still admitted to top 10 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Law schools are largely driven by LSAT and GPA (used by USNWR rankings), so I'd argue undergraduate schools don't make that much difference.

If you are going to factor undergraduate schools, the list adjusted for size of student body would probably be much more meaningful if you are looking at increasing individual odds.

1 Yale University
2 Princeton University
3 Amherst College
4 Harvard University
5 University of Chicago
6 Duke University
7 Columbia University
8 Georgetown University
9 Pomona College
10 Yeshiva University
11 Stanford University
12 Claremont McKenna College
13 Swarthmore College
14 Barnard College
15 Dartmouth College
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 Cornell University
18 Northwestern University
19 Williams College
20 Wesleyan University
21 Rice University
22 Washington University in St. Louis
23 Brown University
24 Vanderbilt University
25 Bowdoin College
26 Washington and Lee University
27 Tufts University
28 Brandeis University
29 Colgate University
30 Bryn Mawr College

Exactly; thank you.

And re GPA -- if you're an engineer, your undergrad GPA can be a little lower and still yield T6 acceptances.

How common is it for engineering undergrads to decide on law school? In a class if 200 law students...how many would be engineers or other stem degrees?

A dozen tops.

[Anonymous]

I have been on the admissions committee at the T14 law school where i teach. It's not ALL about GPA and test scores but that's definitely the main thing. For the most part, we will take the A student with great LSAT scores from East Outer Nowhere State over the Harvard applicant with a B+ average and lower scores. We have to: the tyranny of US news rankings more or less demands it. (Not that dinging the B Harvard kids and diversifying the class is a bad thing either). The Olympic athletes, Silver Star winners and so on will still have a good shot even with lower scores, but mostly we get to "interesting" only after we get to high grades and scores,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have been on the admissions committee at the T14 law school where i teach. It's not ALL about GPA and test scores but that's definitely the main thing. For the most part, we will take the A student with great LSAT scores from East Outer Nowhere State over the Harvard applicant with a B+ average and lower scores. We have to: the tyranny of US news rankings more or less demands it. (Not that dinging the B Harvard kids and diversifying the class is a bad thing either). The Olympic athletes, Silver Star winners and so on will still have a good shot even with lower scores, but mostly we get to "interesting" only after we get to high grades and scores,

Thanks for sharing. So, if it is an A student with great LSAT scores from a known program do you take them or do you still look for something extra? Like ECs or personal statement?

[Anonymous]

Anyone smart enough to go to law school should be smart enough to avoid law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone smart enough to go to law school should be smart enough to avoid law school.

Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD's friend (not in Law school yet) got perfect LSAT (180 is it?) but DD says her college GPA isn't very good. Smart kid - one of those marching to her own drum beat - kinda kid. How do LS see kids like that?

In law school application land this is called a "splitter". Some schools are know to be "splitter-friendly" and some aren't. A person with that record should probably apply more broadly than someone with a GPA/LSAT in the same range, because it'll be more unpredictable which schools accept them.

There are entire other message boards devoted to the minutiae of law school admissions, if that's a thing you're interested in.

As a former "splitter" this is my experience: I had mediocre grades (maybe 3.2) and a 99% LSAT. In any event, I got into a regional law school. When there, I got the highest grades in the class the first semester and ended up 2nd in the class after my first year. I then transferred to a T14 school along with the person who was number 1 (we were in different sections and we met at the top 14 school). I graduated from law school with honors. For some people, law is a good fit.

What law school you go to matters, not just coming out without debt.

I realize now (25+ years later) that I had (have) ADHD. People probably said I marched to my own drummer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Law schools are largely driven by LSAT and GPA (used by USNWR rankings), so I'd argue undergraduate schools don't make that much difference.

If you are going to factor undergraduate schools, the list adjusted for size of student body would probably be much more meaningful if you are looking at increasing individual odds.

1 Yale University
2 Princeton University
3 Amherst College
4 Harvard University
5 University of Chicago
6 Duke University
7 Columbia University
8 Georgetown University
9 Pomona College
10 Yeshiva University
11 Stanford University
12 Claremont McKenna College
13 Swarthmore College
14 Barnard College
15 Dartmouth College
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 Cornell University
18 Northwestern University
19 Williams College
20 Wesleyan University
21 Rice University
22 Washington University in St. Louis
23 Brown University
24 Vanderbilt University
25 Bowdoin College
26 Washington and Lee University
27 Tufts University
28 Brandeis University
29 Colgate University
30 Bryn Mawr College

Exactly; thank you.

And re GPA -- if you're an engineer, your undergrad GPA can be a little lower and still yield T6 acceptances.

How common is it for engineering undergrads to decide on law school? In a class if 200 law students...how many would be engineers or other stem degrees?

A dozen tops.

+1. Less than 3% of attorneys are patent attorneys, so maybe 8-10 STEM majors in a typical class of 200.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been on the admissions committee at the T14 law school where i teach. It's not ALL about GPA and test scores but that's definitely the main thing. For the most part, we will take the A student with great LSAT scores from East Outer Nowhere State over the Harvard applicant with a B+ average and lower scores. We have to: the tyranny of US news rankings more or less demands it. (Not that dinging the B Harvard kids and diversifying the class is a bad thing either). The Olympic athletes, Silver Star winners and so on will still have a good shot even with lower scores, but mostly we get to "interesting" only after we get to high grades and scores,

Thanks for sharing. So, if it is an A student with great LSAT scores from a known program do you take them or do you still look for something extra? Like ECs or personal statement?

yes, we are still looking for interesting ECs and personal statements and recommendations,. But all things being equal the GPA and LSAT scores matter MUCH more than the undergraduate institution. And all things being equal, the kid with top grades and LSAT scores and not super interesting essay will get in over the kid with B+ average and good but not great LSAT scores.

Dirty little secret: it is MUCH easier to get in as a transfer student b/c transfer GPAs and LSAT scores do not need to be reported for US News rankings.

[Anonymous]

No, it really doesn’t matter where you went to undergrad. Run up the gpa and score 167 or above. In private practice, no one gives a damn where you went to undergrad—just law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And re GPA -- if you're an engineer, your undergrad GPA can be a little lower and still yield T6 acceptances.

How common is it for engineering undergrads to decide on law school? In a class if 200 law students...how many would be engineers or other stem degrees?

A dozen tops.

+1. Less than 3% of attorneys are patent attorneys, so maybe 8-10 STEM majors in a typical class of 200.

I assume that's only if they want to become patent attorneys? What's that like?

My kid is a frosh STEM undergrad, just discovered mock trial and is now talking about law school. Kid recently attended their first mock trial tournament (or whatever they call their competitions). The assistant attorney general of the state was judging one of the rounds and gave DC their business card and said "call me when you're in law school. We have lots of internships." Is that a good sign or do they do that with everyone?

How much lower can their GPA be if they're STEM majors?

[Anonymous]

I heard that there's going to be another huge glut of lawyers soon due to all the people who decided to go to law school because of the recent political turmoil or because of the pandemic.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, it really doesn’t matter where you went to undergrad. Run up the gpa and score 167 or above. In private practice, no one gives a damn where you went to undergrad—just law school.

Within the law community this is correct. In the legal world, a Harvard undergraduate/LSU law school lawyer will have much less cachet than the converse (except, of course, in Louisiana).

As an aside, if one is dead certain on practicing in a particular geographic area, the local ties are much more important. A Harvard law degree looks nice, but a U.Washington law degree (with good grades) will be more attractive in Seattle. In DCUM, we tend to gloss this over because many of the lawyers who work here are in Federal practice, and not state/local practice.

However, in terms of getting clients and business networking, the undergraduate connections are helpful to satisfy the BigLaw revenue requirements. Otherwise, the undergraduate school is not important (and I could say the same for doctors as well).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone smart enough to go to law school should be smart enough to avoid law school.

You must be new to DCUM.