How do you get into a top law school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Law schools are largely driven by LSAT and GPA (used by USNWR rankings), so I'd argue undergraduate schools don't make that much difference.

If you are going to factor undergraduate schools, the list adjusted for size of student body would probably be much more meaningful if you are looking at increasing individual odds.

1 Yale University
2 Princeton University
3 Amherst College
4 Harvard University
5 University of Chicago
6 Duke University
7 Columbia University
8 Georgetown University
9 Pomona College
10 Yeshiva University
11 Stanford University
12 Claremont McKenna College
13 Swarthmore College
14 Barnard College
15 Dartmouth College
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 Cornell University
18 Northwestern University
19 Williams College
20 Wesleyan University
21 Rice University
22 Washington University in St. Louis
23 Brown University
24 Vanderbilt University
25 Bowdoin College
26 Washington and Lee University
27 Tufts University
28 Brandeis University
29 Colgate University
30 Bryn Mawr College

Exactly; thank you.

And re GPA -- if you're an engineer, your undergrad GPA can be a little lower and still yield T6 acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sister got into basically all the best law schools (Harvard, Stanford). She went to a state school, had good grades, did student government and debate, nailed her LSAT (over 170), and worked legal and government internships during the summers.

You can 100% go to a state school and get into a top law school.

The process has changed a lot. A 170 is no longer “ nailing it” and it is difficult to get a clerkship or good job out of a state law school unless its UVA or UCLA.

She said her sister went to a state school for undergrad. In any event, ever hear of Michigan Law? How about Boalt Hall?

It’s not called Boalt Hall anymore smarty pants

+1. Also, Berkeley is now at no. 9 and Michigan at 10. We don't hire from those two schools (nor any other below)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Yea, I'm a NP and I'm gonna give this a +1 too. BUT the 2008 downtown was particularly severe. Most folks aren't going to have timing that's so unlucky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doing very well at a lower ranked undergrad helps you more than doing just okay at a top undergrad. Law schools care about your numbers most of all, so if everything else was equal a 4.0 at NC state, or whatever, is going to get you admitted to Yale Law over a 3.5 at Princeton UG. Being an underrepresented minority also helps a lot. Everything else like activities and awards counts only at the margins.

I disagree with this, the T30 colleges had multiple students in my T5 law school class while lower ranked schools did not have more than one. It’s always possible for a super strong kid from a lower ranked school to get in, but it’s an easier route from a top ranked undergraduate school.

Yes but the students from those top undergrads had top grades as well, or maybe several years of work experience somewhere impressive (many of my law school classmates had worked at banks or consulting companies).

The point is that a 3.2 from Stanford is still not getting you into Yale Law unless you have both a very high LSAT (178+) AND another super high value trait, like being a speechwriter for a Senator or something. It takes a lot for schools to accept a low GPA or LSAT because if they do it too often it really drags down their numbers and that hurts rankings, which are considered really important for law schools.

A top law school sont accept a bunch of students from top undergrads with inferior numbers because they don’t need to and it will hurt them in the long run.

I think it depends on the law school, even at the T5 level. You're not going to find very many 1Ls at Yale Law who didn't attend a highly ranked undergrad, and you might find a few more at Stanford, but you'll find plenty of 1Ls from so-so undergrads at Harvard. Harvard is a much bigger school than Yale and Stanford and has to cast a wider net to fill its classes.

BWAHAHAHAH! Harvard has to cast a wide net? Since when? The AVERAGE GPA is a 3.92 and the AVERAGE LSAT is a 74 in the most recent incoming class at Harvard. What so-so schools send students to HLS? Everyone there was a valedictorian, a salutatorian, a Rhodes Scholars, etc. or a sterling Harvard undergrad who spent time at Oxbridge. Yale Law does not have 19 Fulbright Scholars, five Schwarzman Scholars, four QuestBridge Scholars, three Posse Scholars, two Truman Scholars, one Marshall Scholar, two Rhodes Scholars, and two Gates Millennium Scholars, among many other awards and honors. Read about the newest class here: https://today.law.harvard.edu/harvard-law-school-j-d-class-is-most-academically-accomplished-diverse-in-school-history/.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it all about GPA and LSAT? Does it matter where you got your ungergrad degree from?

LSAT > GPA - a great LSAT can overcome just about anything on an undergraduate transcript. At least that's the way it used to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sister got into basically all the best law schools (Harvard, Stanford). She went to a state school, had good grades, did student government and debate, nailed her LSAT (over 170), and worked legal and government internships during the summers.

You can 100% go to a state school and get into a top law school.

The process has changed a lot. A 170 is no longer “ nailing it” and it is difficult to get a clerkship or good job out of a state law school unless its UVA or UCLA.

She said her sister went to a state school for undergrad. In any event, ever hear of Michigan Law? How about Boalt Hall?

It’s not called Boalt Hall anymore smarty pants

+1. Also, Berkeley is now at no. 9 and Michigan at 10. We don't hire from those two schools (nor any other below)

I'm not sure who "we" is but there's not a single law firm in the Vault 100 that doesn't hire from these schools. You're full of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Interesting. I'm the PP who originally posted that I turned down higher rated law schools. I graduated in 2008. I got an offer from a top 5 NYC firm and leveraged it into a second offer from a similar firm but not in NYC. My T50 school has a good alumni network which helped. I am fairly confident that even in worse times the top 10% + law review can get almost any job. It was the right path for me, but I am very debt adverse and wasn't 100% committed to working in big law forever, which I felt was necessary in order to financially justify the cost of other law schools I considered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doing very well at a lower ranked undergrad helps you more than doing just okay at a top undergrad. Law schools care about your numbers most of all, so if everything else was equal a 4.0 at NC state, or whatever, is going to get you admitted to Yale Law over a 3.5 at Princeton UG. Being an underrepresented minority also helps a lot. Everything else like activities and awards counts only at the margins.

I disagree with this, the T30 colleges had multiple students in my T5 law school class while lower ranked schools did not have more than one. It’s always possible for a super strong kid from a lower ranked school to get in, but it’s an easier route from a top ranked undergraduate school.

Yes but the students from those top undergrads had top grades as well, or maybe several years of work experience somewhere impressive (many of my law school classmates had worked at banks or consulting companies).

The point is that a 3.2 from Stanford is still not getting you into Yale Law unless you have both a very high LSAT (178+) AND another super high value trait, like being a speechwriter for a Senator or something. It takes a lot for schools to accept a low GPA or LSAT because if they do it too often it really drags down their numbers and that hurts rankings, which are considered really important for law schools.

A top law school sont accept a bunch of students from top undergrads with inferior numbers because they don’t need to and it will hurt them in the long run.

I think it depends on the law school, even at the T5 level. You're not going to find very many 1Ls at Yale Law who didn't attend a highly ranked undergrad, and you might find a few more at Stanford, but you'll find plenty of 1Ls from so-so undergrads at Harvard. Harvard is a much bigger school than Yale and Stanford and has to cast a wider net to fill its classes.

BWAHAHAHAH! Harvard has to cast a wide net? Since when? The AVERAGE GPA is a 3.92 and the AVERAGE LSAT is a 74 in the most recent incoming class at Harvard. What so-so schools send students to HLS? Everyone there was a valedictorian, a salutatorian, a Rhodes Scholars, etc. or a sterling Harvard undergrad who spent time at Oxbridge. Yale Law does not have 19 Fulbright Scholars, five Schwarzman Scholars, four QuestBridge Scholars, three Posse Scholars, two Truman Scholars, one Marshall Scholar, two Rhodes Scholars, and two Gates Millennium Scholars, among many other awards and honors. Read about the newest class here: https://today.law.harvard.edu/harvard-law-school-j-d-class-is-most-academically-accomplished-diverse-in-school-history/.

Did you see the part in your link where Harvard notes that the incoming class has students from 171 undergraduate schools? That's a lot of schools, 100 more than Yale's entering class. I never said the students weren't all highly qualified; I simply said the school typically enrolled from a wider ranger of undergraduate schools because the entering classes are so big.

Obviously you aren't Harvard quality when it comes to reading comprehension.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Interesting. I'm the PP who originally posted that I turned down higher rated law schools. I graduated in 2008. I got an offer from a top 5 NYC firm and leveraged it into a second offer from a similar firm but not in NYC. My T50 school has a good alumni network which helped. I am fairly confident that even in worse times the top 10% + law review can get almost any job. It was the right path for me, but I am very debt adverse and wasn't 100% committed to working in big law forever, which I felt was necessary in order to financially justify the cost of other law schools I considered.

Therein lies the rub. 90 percent of law school graduates aren't in the top ten percent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

x10000000

Same as any industry, because the market is more or less saturated, at this point. Too many applicants, too many people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Interesting. I'm the PP who originally posted that I turned down higher rated law schools. I graduated in 2008. I got an offer from a top 5 NYC firm and leveraged it into a second offer from a similar firm but not in NYC. My T50 school has a good alumni network which helped. I am fairly confident that even in worse times the top 10% + law review can get almost any job. It was the right path for me, but I am very debt adverse and wasn't 100% committed to working in big law forever, which I felt was necessary in order to financially justify the cost of other law schools I considered.

Therein lies the rub. 90 percent of law school graduates aren't in the top ten percent.

+1

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Interesting. I'm the PP who originally posted that I turned down higher rated law schools. I graduated in 2008. I got an offer from a top 5 NYC firm and leveraged it into a second offer from a similar firm but not in NYC. My T50 school has a good alumni network which helped. I am fairly confident that even in worse times the top 10% + law review can get almost any job. It was the right path for me, but I am very debt adverse and wasn't 100% committed to working in big law forever, which I felt was necessary in order to financially justify the cost of other law schools I considered.

Therein lies the rub. 90 percent of law school graduates aren't in the top ten percent.

+1

Exactly.

True, but if you're scholarship caliber and plan to work your a*! off then it's a reasonable bet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

I was in law school during the 2008 downturn and the bottom 2/3 of Georgetown's class graduated without a legal job. I still have many friends who never found a job as a lawyer. It was even worse outside the T14. In good times the T50 may be fine, but when the legal market contracts, your options will be more limited the further down the tiers you go.

+1

Interesting. I'm the PP who originally posted that I turned down higher rated law schools. I graduated in 2008. I got an offer from a top 5 NYC firm and leveraged it into a second offer from a similar firm but not in NYC. My T50 school has a good alumni network which helped. I am fairly confident that even in worse times the top 10% + law review can get almost any job. It was the right path for me, but I am very debt adverse and wasn't 100% committed to working in big law forever, which I felt was necessary in order to financially justify the cost of other law schools I considered.

Therein lies the rub. 90 percent of law school graduates aren't in the top ten percent.

+1

Exactly.

True, but if you're scholarship caliber and plan to work your a*! off then it's a reasonable bet.

So thinks virtually everyone who doesn't end up in the top ten percent.