Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Im not the previous poster but my husband learned it in Iran.
In fact it was mandatory to learn at least 3 languages in school, Farsi, French (or another language of choice) and Arabic.
The study of the Qur'an was also part of the curriculum.
All this starting in elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Jordan. He can recite Mu'allaqat as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point I made was clear and simple. Children who learn to read the Quran learn it in Arabic only. Why is Afghanistan's literacy rate relevant to the what language the Quran is taught in?

It wasn't quite as simple, was it? You claimed it is incumbent on every Muslim to learn, understand and read the Quran in the original Arabic, or else their understanding is incomplete. You provided the example of children learning the Quran to support your claim. In light of this, it's highly relevant to point out that most children learning to read the Quran aren't learning the language of 7th century Quranic Arabic. In the majority, they are memorizing verses without understanding the language in which they are written. That's highly relevant for the context of your claim that a Muslim isn't educated until he or she read and understood the Quran in its original form.

We are back at this again. It is very simple. I am very sorry thats not the case for you. I will try to explain.

I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Jordan. He can recite Mu'allaqat as well.

So would you say that of the children that are taught the Quran there in Jordan, are they all taught to read it in Arabic? Are they taught the meaning of some of the suras at least?

Btw, I visited Jordan twice. Loved it there. Went to the Dead Sea. Unbelievable that I could see Israel from my hotel room!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Im not the previous poster but my husband learned it in Iran.
In fact it was mandatory to learn at least 3 languages in school, Farsi, French (or another language of choice) and Arabic.
The study of the Qur'an was also part of the curriculum.
All this starting in elementary school.

I rest my case. Sigh. Thank you, pp. I have been saying this but one pp seems to know better by way of a tv show she watched.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point I made was clear and simple. Children who learn to read the Quran learn it in Arabic only. Why is Afghanistan's literacy rate relevant to the what language the Quran is taught in?

It wasn't quite as simple, was it? You claimed it is incumbent on every Muslim to learn, understand and read the Quran in the original Arabic, or else their understanding is incomplete. You provided the example of children learning the Quran to support your claim. In light of this, it's highly relevant to point out that most children learning to read the Quran aren't learning the language of 7th century Quranic Arabic. In the majority, they are memorizing verses without understanding the language in which they are written. That's highly relevant for the context of your claim that a Muslim isn't educated until he or she read and understood the Quran in its original form.

We are back at this again. It is very simple. I am very sorry thats not the case for you. I will try to explain.

I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

So going back to the illiteracy theme, if one is illiterate one cannot be a devout Muslim? That rules out two-thirds of Afghanistan--try telling that to the Taliban.

I have known a number of devout illiterate Muslims and really question the elitist premise that that only those who take tafisr classes or study hadith can be devout. God does not expect it--or he would have made his revelations some place where the illiteracy rate was above 1 percent (my admittedly unscholarly estimate of literacy in seventh century Arabia).

[Anonymous]

Should have been "literacy rate" not "illiteracy rate".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

I thought you thought all hadith is trash? Other than the secret collection under lock and key in Saudi Arabia, yet-unreleased to the world?

I don't believe that an omnipotent, merciful god would make his revelation available exclusively in a language most of his followers don't understand, and then insist that this is the only way it can be understood "properly". This doesn't make any sense. That's just Arab marketing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Should have been "literacy rate" not "illiteracy rate".

LOL, OMG, I laughed out loud when I read it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

And all you have to do to conclude this argument is to admit that children who learn Quran in Arabic do not in fact get any closer to the linguistic command of 7th century Arabic - that magical, unattainable skill God wants everyone to have.

[Anonymous]

Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Im going to have to point out that Farsi and Arabic are not similar languages at all. Farsi is a Indo-European language as is English. Arabic is a Semitic language. There is nothing similar about the two languages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Im going to have to point out that Farsi and Arabic are not similar languages at all. Farsi is a Indo-European language as is English. Arabic is a Semitic language. There is nothing similar about the two languages.

I specifically stated languages with a lot of Arabic words in them, not Semitic languages. Farsi is one of these. Even though Farsi is not Semitic it can be a relatively easy language for Arabic speakers to learn to read--the grammar is not very complicated and a very large percentage of the words are Arabic so it's pretty easy to get up to speed quickly.

I haven't gone the other way, but as so many Persian words are Arabic (and the script is very similar), it would be much easier for a Farsi speaker to learn Arabic than a Malaysian or an Indonesian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Im going to have to point out that Farsi and Arabic are not similar languages at all. Farsi is a Indo-European language as is English. Arabic is a Semitic language. There is nothing similar about the two languages.

I specifically stated languages with a lot of Arabic words in them, not Semitic languages. Farsi is one of these. Even though Farsi is not Semitic it can be a relatively easy language for Arabic speakers to learn to read--the grammar is not very complicated and a very large percentage of the words are Arabic so it's pretty easy to get up to speed quickly.

I haven't gone the other way, but as so many Persian words are Arabic (and the script is very similar), it would be much easier for a Farsi speaker to learn Arabic than a Malaysian or an Indonesian.

I speak/write Farsi and do not understand any Arabic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And why call a scholar anyway if things ought to be obvious, and sometimes actually are obvious, if unpalatable?

Did someone here tell you to call a scholar for obvious points? A 48 page thread shows there may be some points that are not so obvious. Besides, scholars studied Islamic history and its more than just a college class,

Actually, the 48-page thread was about you and another Muslim poster committing mental acrobatics to try and prove, against all sense, that the obvious and simple Quranic verses on slavery, polygamy etc. - can somehow be interpreted to mean roses and chocolates, and those who don't believe it, should just call the scholar already. Because a pair of eyes just won't do.

Islam is actually an amazing religion. I love the fact that I can believe in all prophets Adam through Moses and then Jesus and finally Muhammad. I love the concept of oneness in God. I love that I can have a deeply personal relationship with God in five daily prayers, each of them taking just five minutes. I love that it requires I pay charity. Polygamy is not encouraged but it was practiced and Islam permits it. Same is true for slavery but both in the strictest of situations and not to abuse power. If you read Islamic history, studied tafsir, and spoke to scholars, they would show you proof of Islam's mercy. But if you don't care to learn, then its fine too. To each his own, right?