Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Ivanka Trump divorced and then married a nonjew, had more kids, these news kids would be Jews and have rights to Israel?

Yes, but Palestinians have no right of return. So go figure, it’s all about being an only-Jewish country.

Her kids with a gentile wouldn’t be ethically jewish, she’s not even ethically jewish. You can’t change ethnicity. Can one become Native American or Inuit?

No one is saying you have to be ethnically Jewish to be an Israeli citizen (would you prefer if that were the case? I’m not understanding your point). You don’t even have to be Jewish at all to be an Israeli citizen. Again, 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish.

It’s absurd to me that one day, one of Ivanka Trump’s descendants could become the leader of Israel.

It’s absurd to you because you completely pulled it out of your a$$.

Not for nothing but there’s about a zero percent chance of a Jew becoming President in America because of deep, ingrained antisemitism. When leftists caught even the slightest whiff of the fact that Josh Shapiro might be the VP pick, they threw a fit and screamed “Zionist!!” At anyone who would listen

The equivalent of Ivanka Trump could potentially become leader of the Jewish Holy Land. So much for having ancestral ties to Israel. If Ivanka Trump is a Jew anyone is a jew.

I’m not getting why you’re so butthurt about the fact that a convert to Judaism can live (or speculatively serve in a leadership position) in Israel lol.

If Israel said “you have to be ethnically Jewish to immigrate to Israel or hold office” you’d accuse them of being racist. Israel says “you don’t have to ethnically Jewish to immigrate to Israel or hold office” so you…also accuse them of being racist? Which is it. Sort yourself out.

The selling point of Israel is that it’s the ancestral home of the Jews and also somewhat of a safe haven for Holocaust survivors/families. Ivanka Trump is as Jewish as Josh Shapiro is gentile. I don’t care what arbitrary rules you are following.

You are conflating two ideas and confusing yourself.

Israel is where Judaism originated. Because Judaism is not a proselytizing religion and conversion INTO Judaism has been historically quite rare, most Jews have distant ancestral ties to Israel. That’s just an indisputable historical fact. It’s also one of the reasons why, when early zionists were searching for a place to call home, they thought Israel made sense.

Separately, the modern state of Israel is intended to be a safe haven for Jews fleeing/seeking to avoid persecution. All kinds of Jews and all kinds persecution. A convert to Judaism cannot travel freely or exist safely in many countries, including most Muslim-majority countries. Therefore, Israel exists as a refuge for them as well.

Also the vast majority of people who convert to Judaism do it so that their children can be raised Jewish, because they married into a Jewish family. to the extent PP is fantasizing about a free-for-all, they have it totally wrong.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Ivanka Trump divorced and then married a nonjew, had more kids, these news kids would be Jews and have rights to Israel?

Yes, but Palestinians have no right of return. So go figure, it’s all about being an only-Jewish country.

Her kids with a gentile wouldn’t be ethically jewish, she’s not even ethically jewish. You can’t change ethnicity. Can one become Native American or Inuit?

No one is saying you have to be ethnically Jewish to be an Israeli citizen (would you prefer if that were the case? I’m not understanding your point). You don’t even have to be Jewish at all to be an Israeli citizen. Again, 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish.

It’s absurd to me that one day, one of Ivanka Trump’s descendants could become the leader of Israel.

It’s absurd to you because you completely pulled it out of your a$$.

Not for nothing but there’s about a zero percent chance of a Jew becoming President in America because of deep, ingrained antisemitism. When leftists caught even the slightest whiff of the fact that Josh Shapiro might be the VP pick, they threw a fit and screamed “Zionist!!” At anyone who would listen

The equivalent of Ivanka Trump could potentially become leader of the Jewish Holy Land. So much for having ancestral ties to Israel. If Ivanka Trump is a Jew anyone is a jew.

I’m not getting why you’re so butthurt about the fact that a convert to Judaism can live (or speculatively serve in a leadership position) in Israel lol.

If Israel said “you have to be ethnically Jewish to immigrate to Israel or hold office” you’d accuse them of being racist. Israel says “you don’t have to ethnically Jewish to immigrate to Israel or hold office” so you…also accuse them of being racist? Which is it. Sort yourself out.

I am not accusing Israel of being racist, I am accusing them of selling themselves as the Ancestral Home of the Jews, when people like Ivanka Trump are jews. I’m not even sure what this is. I don’t care if the Jewish religion calls converts real Jews, ethnically they are not and will never be same as Jews will never be gentiles. It is an ethnicity or it isn’t, both can’t be true.

“ethnically they are not and will never be same as Jews.” Ok, so we agree that Jews are an ethnoreligion. What’s the problem here. That Israel is also accepting of converts despite their ethnicity?

I guess yes, I have an issue with an Ivanka Trump claiming that she is the same as an ethnic jew. I have a problem with her claiming Israel as her homeland. It minimizes true ethnic jews experience and history. It seems dismissive or dishonest. It’s like becoming Native American, like you either are or you’re not, you can’t become any other ethnicity as far as I know. There’s no gray area.

Thank you so much for your concern for the well-being of the Jewish people 🙏

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Jewish ethnicity seems so tied into the religion that I don’t see how anyone could possibly convert. I would feel like such a fraud.

Ok. well, you could attend services and classes and do some reading. It is true that most Jewish congregations do not seek converts but there are many places to go to learn about Judaism. It’s not about ethnicity per se but sincerely being interested and devoted to the traditions, which is not something that most people just pick up easily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Jewish ethnicity seems so tied into the religion that I don’t see how anyone could possibly convert. I would feel like such a fraud.

You could convert but it doesn't mean you have to be a genocidal, racist Zionist but instead accept and embody true Judaism which is actually a good and noble way of life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Jewish ethnicity seems so tied into the religion that I don’t see how anyone could possibly convert. I would feel like such a fraud.

You could convert but it doesn't mean you have to be a genocidal, racist Zionist but instead accept and embody true Judaism which is actually a good and noble way of life.

yes great idea to walk into a synagogue and tell the rabbi that you are ready to “accept true Judaism.” lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.

[Anonymous]

I’m anti-IDF, anti-Netanyahu, pro-Palestinian, but not antisemitic (I’m Jewish). Political groups are co-opting “antisemitism” accusations for their own pro-Israel ends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I’m anti-IDF, anti-Netanyahu, pro-Palestinian, but not antisemitic (I’m Jewish). Political groups are co-opting “antisemitism” accusations for their own pro-Israel ends.

Ok. Post ONE example of where that has happened on this entire 50 page thread. Just one. Better yet, post one example of where that has happened period. I’m talking about someone saying ANY criticism of Israel is antisemitic - not specifically calling out antisemitic behavior (e.g. comparing Israel to Nazi Germany or calling for the destruction of the state of Israel) as antisemitic.

[Anonymous]

[twitter]

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I’m anti-IDF, anti-Netanyahu, pro-Palestinian, but not antisemitic (I’m Jewish). Political groups are co-opting “antisemitism” accusations for their own pro-Israel ends.

Ok. Post ONE example of where that has happened on this entire 50 page thread. Just one. Better yet, post one example of where that has happened period. I’m talking about someone saying ANY criticism of Israel is antisemitic - not specifically calling out antisemitic behavior (e.g. comparing Israel to Nazi Germany or calling for the destruction of the state of Israel) as antisemitic.

I don’t see how many people who aren’t even semitic, they only practice Judiasm, can accuse others of being antisemitic. An Ivanka Trump is not semitic. So how can antisemitism apply to someone like her?

[Anonymous]

Ivanka could be affected by antijewish rhetoric but not true antisemitism because she is an anglo saxon czech gentile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.

How does the fact that a minuscule number of converts immigrate to Israel somehow undermine the claim that Jews have ancestral ties to Israel? Judaism started in Israel. The vast majority of Jews are not converts. What is difficult to understand here, I’m not getting it.

Are you saying being Jewish isn’t an immutable characteristic so it’s all bullshit? People can convert to Judaism, yes, but the more relevant point is that ethnic Jews can’t really convert OUT of Judaism in a way that will shield them from discrimination. Even those who publicly disavow their faith or try to pass as Christians are persecuted (there are countless, countless examples of this during the Holocaust and throughout history). So Jewish ethnicity/ancestry is a salient category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m anti-IDF, anti-Netanyahu, pro-Palestinian, but not antisemitic (I’m Jewish). Political groups are co-opting “antisemitism” accusations for their own pro-Israel ends.

Ok. Post ONE example of where that has happened on this entire 50 page thread. Just one. Better yet, post one example of where that has happened period. I’m talking about someone saying ANY criticism of Israel is antisemitic - not specifically calling out antisemitic behavior (e.g. comparing Israel to Nazi Germany or calling for the destruction of the state of Israel) as antisemitic.

I don’t see how many people who aren’t even semitic, they only practice Judiasm, can accuse others of being antisemitic. An Ivanka Trump is not semitic. So how can antisemitism apply to someone like her?

This was discussed on page ONE of this thread.
While the term "Semitic" historically referred to a group of languages and peoples including Arabs and Jews, the word "antisemitism" was coined in the late 19th century in Europe to describe anti-Jewish sentiment. The term "antisemitism" in modern usage specifically denotes prejudice against Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.

True. The possibility of conversion means Israel has no right to exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ivanka could be affected by antijewish rhetoric but not true antisemitism because she is an anglo saxon czech gentile.

This is a dumb argument but for the sake of argument - associating with a minority class through marriage commonly means that the non-monitory spouse is affected by anti-minority prejudice by association.