Confederate Battle Flag

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think Andrew Duncomb makes a good point:

“They’re blaming the racist problems on the flag and not on the real problems of America. Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside,” Duncomb says.

I actually don't understand what "Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside" means. But, can you please explain, as succinctly as possible, what message people in Oklahoma would be trying to send to Obama by waving a Confederate Battle Flag?

What Duncomb is saying is the Confederate battle flag is not to blame; it's people who harbor hate. Your animosity towards an inanimate object is blinding you. We can burn every confederate flag and some people would still be racist. What's next? Are you willing to incarcerate someone for saying something you consider racist? Force them into psychological care?

Yes, people who harbor hate are the problem. Mastery of the obvious, and nobody here ever said otherwise. But if that's all you think, then you are completely naive and totally missed the big picture.

The problem with the Confederate flag is that it is a symbol and focal point for the birds of a feather united in common racist hatred to rally behind. One lone racist over here or over there is easy to ignore, or easy to deal with and to shut down. And, on their own, their racism and hatred will eventually fizzle out. But a whole mob of racists who are unified behind a flag is a whole lot harder to ignore or deal with, it generates an hateful energy and racist life of its own that extends far beyond just the individual, and that's why the flag is a problem.

And when they choose a different symbol, that becomes banned as well. And in addition, you want to curtail their ability to meet as a group, even if they are together in a non-violent way?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think Andrew Duncomb makes a good point:

“They’re blaming the racist problems on the flag and not on the real problems of America. Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside,” Duncomb says.

I actually don't understand what "Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside" means. But, can you please explain, as succinctly as possible, what message people in Oklahoma would be trying to send to Obama by waving a Confederate Battle Flag?

What Duncomb is saying is the Confederate battle flag is not to blame; it's people who harbor hate. Your animosity towards an inanimate object is blinding you. We can burn every confederate flag and some people would still be racist. What's next? Are you willing to incarcerate someone for saying something you consider racist? Force them into psychological care?

Obviously flags have symbolic meanings. They represent something. Otherwise, why would we pledge allegiance to a flag? Why do people demonstrate their patriotism with flags? Why is a flag lapel pin so important for every politician to wear? If a flag was simply an "inanimate object", why would people go to the trouble of buying one, bringing it to a demonstration, and waving it around? Can you explain what message those who took those steps were trying to convey when they waved the flag in front of Obama? Why didn't they choose a Nazi flag, for instance, or an ISIS flag? Or, if they are only waving an "inanimate object", why not a piece of cardboard? What was special about the Confederate Battle Flag that caused them to choose to wave it and what message were they trying to send?

The message they were trying to send is that the flag itself is not responsible for racism. That it's ridiculous to ascribe that much power to a flag, as if destroying it or striking it from history will change history, or the future. Or people's hearts. Flags to have symbolic meaning; you see it one way, Duncomb sees it another. The problem is, is that progressives seem to want it their way or the highway. So again, after the flag is banned/destroyed, what's next?

If this is the case, would you agree that the protesters urgently need a class in effective communication? If you or they believe that an almost entirely white group of people waving a flag while protesting a black man is an effective means of communicating that "the flag itself is not responsible for racism", I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

BTW, would you feel the same way about Nazi flags carried by protestors at synagogues? Would that be an effective means of communicating that "the flag itself is not responsible for anti-Semitism"?

It's not my place to judge them in that manner, nor to educate them, in communication or otherwise. In a free society, they are allowed to protest in any way they see fit, so long as its not violent.

Yes, I feel the same way about Nazi flags/protestors. They have a right to protest non-violently. Nor would I consider the flag responsible for anti-semitism. The people are. The flag is simply cloth.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, sure, and when an ISIS flag is spotted in your town, I'll remind you "it's just a meaningless piece of cloth"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, sure, and when an ISIS flag is spotted in your town, I'll remind you "it's just a meaningless piece of cloth"

The flag won't be the thing that kills - the individual will.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think Andrew Duncomb makes a good point:

“They’re blaming the racist problems on the flag and not on the real problems of America. Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside,” Duncomb says.

I actually don't understand what "Through the race lies the people who carry and harbor the hate inside" means. But, can you please explain, as succinctly as possible, what message people in Oklahoma would be trying to send to Obama by waving a Confederate Battle Flag?

What Duncomb is saying is the Confederate battle flag is not to blame; it's people who harbor hate. Your animosity towards an inanimate object is blinding you. We can burn every confederate flag and some people would still be racist. What's next? Are you willing to incarcerate someone for saying something you consider racist? Force them into psychological care?

Obviously flags have symbolic meanings. They represent something. Otherwise, why would we pledge allegiance to a flag? Why do people demonstrate their patriotism with flags? Why is a flag lapel pin so important for every politician to wear? If a flag was simply an "inanimate object", why would people go to the trouble of buying one, bringing it to a demonstration, and waving it around? Can you explain what message those who took those steps were trying to convey when they waved the flag in front of Obama? Why didn't they choose a Nazi flag, for instance, or an ISIS flag? Or, if they are only waving an "inanimate object", why not a piece of cardboard? What was special about the Confederate Battle Flag that caused them to choose to wave it and what message were they trying to send?

The message they were trying to send is that the flag itself is not responsible for racism. That it's ridiculous to ascribe that much power to a flag, as if destroying it or striking it from history will change history, or the future. Or people's hearts. Flags to have symbolic meaning; you see it one way, Duncomb sees it another. The problem is, is that progressives seem to want it their way or the highway. So again, after the flag is banned/destroyed, what's next?

If this is the case, would you agree that the protesters urgently need a class in effective communication? If you or they believe that an almost entirely white group of people waving a flag while protesting a black man is an effective means of communicating that "the flag itself is not responsible for racism", I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

BTW, would you feel the same way about Nazi flags carried by protestors at synagogues? Would that be an effective means of communicating that "the flag itself is not responsible for anti-Semitism"?

It's not my place to judge them in that manner, nor to educate them, in communication or otherwise. In a free society, they are allowed to protest in any way they see fit, so long as its not violent.

Yes, I feel the same way about Nazi flags/protestors. They have a right to protest non-violently. Nor would I consider the flag responsible for anti-semitism. The people are. The flag is simply cloth.

But, if people were protesting at a synagogue and waving a Nazi flag -- which according to you is just a piece of cloth with no meaning -- why would you think they were anti-Semites? Why would you assume that people simply trying to send the message that the flag itself is not responsible for anti-Semitism are anti-Semites? Wouldn't you want to join them in sending their message that flags aren't the problem, people are the problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Here is what greeted Obama today in Oklahoma. Oklahoma wasn't even a state during the Civil War so exactly what "heritage" is being celebrated by these folks? Can anyone think of a reason for a bunch of white people to wave the Confederate Battle flag in front of a black president? I stumped myself:

Did you know that the organizer of that little protest group...and it was a LITTLE group...is a black man?

"According to local news organizations, a man named Andrew Duncomb, who calls himself the “black rebel,” organized the Confederate flag demonstration."

Sooooooo, you think that makes it somehow better? Black people are not all the same, you know, and they don't all claim to speak for or represent all black people.

What makes you think that I thought it made it better?

What I put in bold...remember that should you ever try to put all of a group into the same boat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, sure, and when an ISIS flag is spotted in your town, I'll remind you "it's just a meaningless piece of cloth"

The flag won't be the thing that kills - the individual will.

The problem you still don't seem to understand is that with the addition of a flag or other symbol, it's no longer about *individuals* - it's about *groups*. A group is far more dangerous than any individual can ever be. Dylann Roof didn't formulate his ideas and ideology in a vacuum. He is not the only person to hold the beliefs he held. He got it from the groupthink of others who have built up their ideology and mindset. The language in his manifesto is echoed by hundreds of other people in dozens of other racist sites, like Stormfront.org. It's no different than the ISIS terrorist who blows himself up in a market and kills a dozen innocents - the threat to society doesn't end when that individual blows himself up, because there are 20 more just like him rallying behind that flag and ideology.

[Anonymous]

Germany has banned the swastika and can block access to websites with the symbol. I don't think one can argue that anyone's rights were infringed or that the country is moving toward tyranny. Anyone defending the display of the confederate battle flag is a POS closeted racist who wants the rest of us to ignore our legacy of lynchings, cross burnings and other atrocities used to terrorize AAs. It has no place in a civilized society.

[Anonymous]

It's not tyranny to expect that the government should not endorse symbols of slavery. It is actually tyranny when they do.

[Anonymous]

Is it okay if I go out and wipe my ass with the Amurican flag before setting it on fire? After all it's just a piece of cloth without symbolic meaning, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it okay if I go out and wipe my ass with the Amurican flag before setting it on fire? After all it's just a piece of cloth without symbolic meaning, right?

You could wear it as a poncho.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it okay if I go out and wipe my ass with the Amurican flag before setting it on fire? After all it's just a piece of cloth without symbolic meaning, right?

You could wear it as a poncho.

Is it okay that the American flag was carried by those who slaughtered Native Americans?

This memory with flag thing has so many variables.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it okay if I go out and wipe my ass with the Amurican flag before setting it on fire? After all it's just a piece of cloth without symbolic meaning, right?

You could wear it as a poncho.

Is it okay that the American flag was carried by those who slaughtered Native Americans?

This memory with flag thing has so many variables.

It is not that complicated. The flag represents our history, all of it, good and bad, including slavery. We fly it with that knowledge. The Confederate Flag is a flag made to represent the fight of the South to preserve slavery. If we had an "Indian Extermination" flag and chose to fly that over the Oklahoma capitol, you would have a point. Even if some Oklahoma citizens thought of it as part of their "heritage".

Stop trying to use the tragedy of the Indian to establish some sort of moral equivalence regarding slavery. It is pathetic. Slavery stands on its own, as an evil, and finding another evil does not reduce its meaning.

[Anonymous]

Unlike the flag of the United States, which represents a nation that has continuously existed ever since we declared independence in 1776, and which has since had a long span of both good and bad, the Confederate flag represents a nation that only existed from 1861 to 1865, and the only real history directly connected with it is slavery, tearing the nation apart, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans. Unlike the case of the United States flag, there is little real "good" that can ever be attributed to the Confederate flag.

[jsteele]

I propose that if states want to recognize their heritage by flying the Confederate flag, they should also fly the flags of other ruling states. For instance, Florida and California could hoist the Spanish flag, Texas can proudly fly the Mexican flag, Louisiana can raise the banner of France, Alaska could actually see Russian flags from their flag poles, etc. Anything less would be whitewashing history.