TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people making graphs suggesting essays are something other than merit?

I'm not commenting on the graphs, but regarding essays:

The essays may convey some notion of merit, but it is a far more ambiguous notion of merit. Two different evaluators may score the same essay quite differently. Furthermore, an essay-writing evaluation would also be heavily influenced the writer's ability to sway the reader with their writing, a skill which some might not consider to be of most prominent importance for admissions to a STEM school. Finally, essay scores would be influenced by native English speaking ability, which is not a metric of merit.

In other words, it is much more difficult to “crack the code” on essay writing. 😄

IMO using an essay is not in and of itself a bad thing, but using it as the main factor for admission is a bad idea. Better to have other factors (e.g. test scores) so that you have some way to know if an especially low or high scoring essay is an outlier.

On the other hand, I have no idea why some posters here are so dead-set against tests as a measure of merit. Tests are, inherently, the name you give to the tool you use to assess something. If you go to a doctor and you want to find out whether you have an illness, you take a test. Some tests are better than others at measuring what they are supposed to measure - you wouldn't give someone an arithmetic test to find out if they have the mathematical aptitude to take calculus, but it's silly to think that there is no test that can be used to figure it out. Does it make sense to use multiple tests in case someone has a "bad day" or has exam stress? Maybe. I don't know what the right formula is, but it's short-sighted to think there isn't one.

The thing I do agree with is that people shouldn't be penalized on admissions for not having money. I think the solution is to find tests that everyone can prep for, rather than ones that you have to pay a lot of money to prep for. Paying a lot of money should always be an option rather than a necessity.

Another factor is teachers’ recommendations. I really don’t see why inputs from MS teachers were removed from a holistic reviewing process.

Because it's been proven that they are racially biased.

Which studies have proved this claim? TJ has admitted a lot more White students since they dropped teachers' recommendations from their admissions process.

Yes, but they also dropped testing and tests are racially biased against white, blacks, and hispanics.

Non-Asian students don't perform as well in tests. That doesn't mean tests are racially biased.

Apparently America suffers from a form of racism that gives unearned advantages to asians over whites. Not sure about the details but the answer is always racism.

Not always. The biggest issue is HHI. But race certainly plays a role in inequalities, including HHI.

Not sure what HHI is but everything plays a role in inequality. Why are the descendants of vietnamese refugees that came here with nothing doing so well? Why didn't their race prevent them from closing the achievement gap?

Household income.

If you aren’t wealthy you it is tough to afford the expensive test prep that gives an unfair advantage in admissions to a public school magnet school.

Ideally, make the test prep free/public. Another option is taking away the test.

We should strive for a level playing field for all of our kids, regardless of their family situation.

No. Families should strive to level the playing field for their own children.

Tests are part of life beyond TJ admissions.

That isn’t leveling the playing field, that’s gaming the system.

Most standardized tests (SAT, ACT, etc) have free prep classes/materials available.

And most of those tests show similar imbalances and gaps. Families are the true enrichcment.

Why not just use applicant's middle school class ranking? It will be objective and will simplify the admission process. No additional test and silly
essay needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people making graphs suggesting essays are something other than merit?

I'm not commenting on the graphs, but regarding essays:

The essays may convey some notion of merit, but it is a far more ambiguous notion of merit. Two different evaluators may score the same essay quite differently. Furthermore, an essay-writing evaluation would also be heavily influenced the writer's ability to sway the reader with their writing, a skill which some might not consider to be of most prominent importance for admissions to a STEM school. Finally, essay scores would be influenced by native English speaking ability, which is not a metric of merit.

In other words, it is much more difficult to “crack the code” on essay writing. 😄

IMO using an essay is not in and of itself a bad thing, but using it as the main factor for admission is a bad idea. Better to have other factors (e.g. test scores) so that you have some way to know if an especially low or high scoring essay is an outlier.

On the other hand, I have no idea why some posters here are so dead-set against tests as a measure of merit. Tests are, inherently, the name you give to the tool you use to assess something. If you go to a doctor and you want to find out whether you have an illness, you take a test. Some tests are better than others at measuring what they are supposed to measure - you wouldn't give someone an arithmetic test to find out if they have the mathematical aptitude to take calculus, but it's silly to think that there is no test that can be used to figure it out. Does it make sense to use multiple tests in case someone has a "bad day" or has exam stress? Maybe. I don't know what the right formula is, but it's short-sighted to think there isn't one.

The thing I do agree with is that people shouldn't be penalized on admissions for not having money. I think the solution is to find tests that everyone can prep for, rather than ones that you have to pay a lot of money to prep for. Paying a lot of money should always be an option rather than a necessity.

Another factor is teachers’ recommendations. I really don’t see why inputs from MS teachers were removed from a holistic reviewing process.

Because it's been proven that they are racially biased.

Which studies have proved this claim? TJ has admitted a lot more White students since they dropped teachers' recommendations from their admissions process.

Yes, but they also dropped testing and tests are racially biased against white, blacks, and hispanics.

Non-Asian students don't perform as well in tests. That doesn't mean tests are racially biased.

Apparently America suffers from a form of racism that gives unearned advantages to asians over whites. Not sure about the details but the answer is always racism.

Not always. The biggest issue is HHI. But race certainly plays a role in inequalities, including HHI.

Not sure what HHI is but everything plays a role in inequality. Why are the descendants of vietnamese refugees that came here with nothing doing so well? Why didn't their race prevent them from closing the achievement gap?

Household income.

If you aren’t wealthy you it is tough to afford the expensive test prep that gives an unfair advantage in admissions to a public school magnet school.

Ideally, make the test prep free/public. Another option is taking away the test.

We should strive for a level playing field for all of our kids, regardless of their family situation.

No. Families should strive to level the playing field for their own children.

Tests are part of life beyond TJ admissions.

That isn’t leveling the playing field, that’s gaming the system.

Most standardized tests (SAT, ACT, etc) have free prep classes/materials available.

And most of those tests show similar imbalances and gaps. Families are the true enrichcment.

Why not just use applicant's middle school class ranking? It will be objective and will simplify the admission process. No additional test and silly
essay needed.

Not all middle school are the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it will fall much further now based on the new admissions process IF the eval is based on non equity metrics.

Actually the equity might hurt more if the gap between urm and non-urm widens. URM perofrmance is 10% of the scoring criteria so if you have urm students that got in under merit based system, they are going to do better than if they got in under a lottery. This is true of all groups but there is an extra emphasis on the performance of urm groups. And at the top of the rankings very small changes can lead to large movements in rankings. Honestly the rankings don't bother me at all.

Underserved Student Performance 10%:
Scores on state assessments aggregated just among students who are Black, Hispanic and from low-income households. These scores are compared with what is typical in the state for non-underserved students, with parity or higher being the goal.

[Anonymous]

Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people making graphs suggesting essays are something other than merit?

I'm not commenting on the graphs, but regarding essays:

The essays may convey some notion of merit, but it is a far more ambiguous notion of merit. Two different evaluators may score the same essay quite differently. Furthermore, an essay-writing evaluation would also be heavily influenced the writer's ability to sway the reader with their writing, a skill which some might not consider to be of most prominent importance for admissions to a STEM school. Finally, essay scores would be influenced by native English speaking ability, which is not a metric of merit.

In other words, it is much more difficult to “crack the code” on essay writing. 😄

IMO using an essay is not in and of itself a bad thing, but using it as the main factor for admission is a bad idea. Better to have other factors (e.g. test scores) so that you have some way to know if an especially low or high scoring essay is an outlier.

On the other hand, I have no idea why some posters here are so dead-set against tests as a measure of merit. Tests are, inherently, the name you give to the tool you use to assess something. If you go to a doctor and you want to find out whether you have an illness, you take a test. Some tests are better than others at measuring what they are supposed to measure - you wouldn't give someone an arithmetic test to find out if they have the mathematical aptitude to take calculus, but it's silly to think that there is no test that can be used to figure it out. Does it make sense to use multiple tests in case someone has a "bad day" or has exam stress? Maybe. I don't know what the right formula is, but it's short-sighted to think there isn't one.

The thing I do agree with is that people shouldn't be penalized on admissions for not having money. I think the solution is to find tests that everyone can prep for, rather than ones that you have to pay a lot of money to prep for. Paying a lot of money should always be an option rather than a necessity.

Another factor is teachers’ recommendations. I really don’t see why inputs from MS teachers were removed from a holistic reviewing process.

Because it's been proven that they are racially biased.

Which studies have proved this claim? TJ has admitted a lot more White students since they dropped teachers' recommendations from their admissions process.

Yes, but they also dropped testing and tests are racially biased against white, blacks, and hispanics.

Non-Asian students don't perform as well in tests. That doesn't mean tests are racially biased.

Apparently America suffers from a form of racism that gives unearned advantages to asians over whites. Not sure about the details but the answer is always racism.

Not always. The biggest issue is HHI. But race certainly plays a role in inequalities, including HHI.

Not sure what HHI is but everything plays a role in inequality. Why are the descendants of vietnamese refugees that came here with nothing doing so well? Why didn't their race prevent them from closing the achievement gap?

Household income.

If you aren’t wealthy you it is tough to afford the expensive test prep that gives an unfair advantage in admissions to a public school magnet school.

Ideally, make the test prep free/public. Another option is taking away the test.

We should strive for a level playing field for all of our kids, regardless of their family situation.

No. Families should strive to level the playing field for their own children.

Tests are part of life beyond TJ admissions.

That isn’t leveling the playing field, that’s gaming the system.

Most standardized tests (SAT, ACT, etc) have free prep classes/materials available.

And most of those tests show similar imbalances and gaps. Families are the true enrichcment.

Why not just use applicant's middle school class ranking? It will be objective and will simplify the admission process. No additional test and silly
essay needed.

How? There are vastly many more kids with 4.0s than there are available seats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations, FCPS board successfully proved to the GIGO concept.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 or earlier so it fell before they fixed the admission process.

Yes, TJ fell to #14 based on data from before the admission changes. That was established earlier in this thread.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 and earlier, so before they fixed admissions, but once they get the updated stats, TJ will be back on top.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people making graphs suggesting essays are something other than merit?

I'm not commenting on the graphs, but regarding essays:

The essays may convey some notion of merit, but it is a far more ambiguous notion of merit. Two different evaluators may score the same essay quite differently. Furthermore, an essay-writing evaluation would also be heavily influenced the writer's ability to sway the reader with their writing, a skill which some might not consider to be of most prominent importance for admissions to a STEM school. Finally, essay scores would be influenced by native English speaking ability, which is not a metric of merit.

In other words, it is much more difficult to “crack the code” on essay writing. 😄

IMO using an essay is not in and of itself a bad thing, but using it as the main factor for admission is a bad idea. Better to have other factors (e.g. test scores) so that you have some way to know if an especially low or high scoring essay is an outlier.

On the other hand, I have no idea why some posters here are so dead-set against tests as a measure of merit. Tests are, inherently, the name you give to the tool you use to assess something. If you go to a doctor and you want to find out whether you have an illness, you take a test. Some tests are better than others at measuring what they are supposed to measure - you wouldn't give someone an arithmetic test to find out if they have the mathematical aptitude to take calculus, but it's silly to think that there is no test that can be used to figure it out. Does it make sense to use multiple tests in case someone has a "bad day" or has exam stress? Maybe. I don't know what the right formula is, but it's short-sighted to think there isn't one.

The thing I do agree with is that people shouldn't be penalized on admissions for not having money. I think the solution is to find tests that everyone can prep for, rather than ones that you have to pay a lot of money to prep for. Paying a lot of money should always be an option rather than a necessity.

Another factor is teachers’ recommendations. I really don’t see why inputs from MS teachers were removed from a holistic reviewing process.

Because it's been proven that they are racially biased.

Which studies have proved this claim? TJ has admitted a lot more White students since they dropped teachers' recommendations from their admissions process.

Yes, but they also dropped testing and tests are racially biased against white, blacks, and hispanics.

Non-Asian students don't perform as well in tests. That doesn't mean tests are racially biased.

Apparently America suffers from a form of racism that gives unearned advantages to asians over whites. Not sure about the details but the answer is always racism.

Not always. The biggest issue is HHI. But race certainly plays a role in inequalities, including HHI.

Not sure what HHI is but everything plays a role in inequality. Why are the descendants of vietnamese refugees that came here with nothing doing so well? Why didn't their race prevent them from closing the achievement gap?

Household income.

If you aren’t wealthy you it is tough to afford the expensive test prep that gives an unfair advantage in admissions to a public school magnet school.

Ideally, make the test prep free/public. Another option is taking away the test.

We should strive for a level playing field for all of our kids, regardless of their family situation.

No. Families should strive to level the playing field for their own children.

Tests are part of life beyond TJ admissions.

That isn’t leveling the playing field, that’s gaming the system.

Most standardized tests (SAT, ACT, etc) have free prep classes/materials available.

And most of those tests show similar imbalances and gaps. Families are the true enrichcment.

Why not just use applicant's middle school class ranking? It will be objective and will simplify the admission process. No additional test and silly
essay needed.

How? There are vastly many more kids with 4.0s than there are available seats.

It seems like you're just looking for excuses because you miss being able to game admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations, FCPS board successfully proved to the GIGO concept.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 or earlier so it fell before they fixed the admission process.

Yes, TJ fell to #14 based on data from before the admission changes. That was established earlier in this thread.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 and earlier, so before they fixed admissions, but once they get the updated stats, TJ will be back on top.

This is incorrect. The first class of the new admissions policy took their SOL in 21-22. This is a large reason for the drop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M science competition by developing a treatment for skin cancer. He's black. I don't know if he even applied to TJ but there is nothing about the current process that would have ensured that he gets in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M science competition by developing a treatment for skin cancer. He's black. I don't know if he even applied to TJ but there is nothing about the current process that would have ensured that he gets in.

He probably felt unwelcome. Many of the students assume any URM only got in because of fictional quotas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations, FCPS board successfully proved to the GIGO concept.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 or earlier so it fell before they fixed the admission process.

Yes, TJ fell to #14 based on data from before the admission changes. That was established earlier in this thread.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 and earlier, so before they fixed admissions, but once they get the updated stats, TJ will be back on top.

It's no shock that TJ fell. The old process was so corrupt. It did not select the best kids. I imagine they'll be #1 again soon!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M science competition by developing a treatment for skin cancer. He's black. I don't know if he even applied to TJ but there is nothing about the current process that would have ensured that he gets in.

He probably felt unwelcome. Many of the students assume any URM only got in because of fictional quotas.

So he felt more welcome at woodson? Come on now!
There were no quotas under the old system. And there is definitely a quota now. 1.5% from every school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations, FCPS board successfully proved to the GIGO concept.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 or earlier so it fell before they fixed the admission process.

Yes, TJ fell to #14 based on data from before the admission changes. That was established earlier in this thread.

The ranking was based on data from 2022 and earlier, so before they fixed admissions, but once they get the updated stats, TJ will be back on top.

It's no shock that TJ fell. The old process was so corrupt. It did not select the best kids. I imagine they'll be #1 again soon!

If the old system was so corrupt then how did they get to #1 in the first place? And then why did they drop after they replaced a merit based system with what amounts to a lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M science competition by developing a treatment for skin cancer. He's black. I don't know if he even applied to TJ but there is nothing about the current process that would have ensured that he gets in.

He probably felt unwelcome. Many of the students assume any URM only got in because of fictional quotas.

So he felt more welcome at woodson? Come on now!
There were no quotas under the old system. And there is definitely a quota now. 1.5% from every school.

He probably is very good at hands on science but may not be a great math or science or other academic work in the classroom. They are different skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our URM student from Longfellow with Geometry and multiple years of stem contest participation did not receive an offer. It is asinine to suggest we could have increased our TJ chances had we moved back to our previous Whitman Middle neighborhood. Current system is broken, and doesn't work for merit URM students.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M science competition by developing a treatment for skin cancer. He's black. I don't know if he even applied to TJ but there is nothing about the current process that would have ensured that he gets in.

He probably felt unwelcome. Many of the students assume any URM only got in because of fictional quotas.

So he felt more welcome at woodson? Come on now!
There were no quotas under the old system. And there is definitely a quota now. 1.5% from every school.

The culture at TJ is very hostile any URMs. Even people here still constantly go on about fictional quotas or affirmative action that doesn't exist in a race blind process. I can understand why he'd feel more welcome at his base school.